6 ms·

Just glancing through them it looks like perfectly reasonable telemetry collection, not sure why you call that spying.

1vuio0pswjnm7 4y ago
What's wrong with spying. But seriously, since Microsoft is sharing the source code, why not just remove the unwanted telemetry and re-compile. How easy would that be.
Lammy 4y ago
spy (/spaɪ/) v., 1 : [intransitive] to collect secret information about another country, organization or person
- meowkit 4y ago
  Is your runtime data “secret”? I think some people will have a hard time with this concept, but the idea of data being “private” or “secret”, by default, is disappearing. And it won’t be coming back if the world continues to digitize. If you want those attributes for your data, you’ll have to take measures. That means reading user agreements, verifying open source, using encryption intentionally. Vacuuming up data is not spying. Especially if you essentially agree to it when you accept the Windows terms of service (ethical issues of this aside).
  - Lammy 4y ago
    > Especially if you essentially agree to it when you accept the Windows terms of service (ethical issues of this aside) “But the plans were on display…” “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.” “That’s the display department.” “With a flashlight.” “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.” “So had the stairs.” “But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?” “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”
- DoctorOW 4y ago
  "secret information" is quite a bit of a stretch...
  - baisq 4y ago
    What you do with your software in the privacy of your home seems like it should be “secret”
    - Genbox 4y ago
      That is not how telemetry works. It is not spying or a privacy issue. Categorizing it as such only dilute the meaning of both terms so the real issues won't be taken serious. If you feel like a bunch of developers getting info about how many times the world clicks on a button hurts you personally, then don't install it. Calling it a privacy issue it taking it too far.
      - imwillofficial 4y ago
        It is absolutely both a spying and privacy issue. What I decide is private, or what information constitutes spying is arbitrary. I love windows terminal, but it should collect nothing by default. Another subjective opinion.
        Genbox 4y ago
        Arh yes, the good old "everything means nothing" argument. I'm sorry to say, but words have meaning [1][2], and most of them are formally defined. And yes, I think that an HTTP POST to Microsoft's Windows Terminal team saying "UserUsedTerminalInInterative = true" is not a privacy issue, nor is it spying. Can you explain to me how this information hurt users of Windows Terminal? If it indeed is spying, it should be possible to demonstrate how it is used for hostile purposes or why such an innocuous piece of information must be kept a secret. Until then, I think it is fair for the Windows Terminal team to collect such basic telemetry for their software [1]https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spying https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spying [2]https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/privacy https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/privacy
tjoff 4y ago
Just glancing through them it looks like it wouldn't produce much meaningful data, begs the question - why have it in the first place? Since everyone involved must have known the reactions to it.
- dboreham 4y ago
  In my experience it's often not the case that "everyone involved" knows these things. Quite the contrary actually. Many times I'd been the guy to tap someone on the shoulder (remotely of course) to say hey that's really not something we can do.
babypuncher 4y ago
We have a habit of diluting words to the point where they are meaningless, and I think it does more to hurt important causes than support them. By labeling all forms of telemetry as "spying", we just make it so people are less likely to take actual claims of spying seriously.
- disruptiveink 4y ago
  That is what it once meant. "Spyware" was the term used for any process that called home regarding any information about you, your computer or your usage in the background. Calling home for anything other than "Check for updates" menu items or other actions where calling home was the explicit action the user wanted would get your name tarnished in the media and added to the signature list of software built for the sole purpose of finding and forcefully removing software like that. Practically any Android app these days would be considered "spyware" if we were still applying the "spyware" definition of the early 2000s. And we would be better off if we had never stopped.
  - mortenlarsen 4y ago
    I would call that malware. Telemetry is just malware with a marketing department.
    - a1369209993 4y ago
      > Telemetry is just malware with a marketing department. Malware is more broad, and includes things that don't send any information back, like viruses. Telemetry is spyware with a marketing department.
      - mortenlarsen 4y ago
        Yes, malware is a broader category. But one that includes spyware.
  - judge2020 4y ago
    I don’t see why the makers of an app aren’t entitled to seeing how the app is used for the people who opt to use it. If I’m using windows terminal, I want them to know how often I use the hot keys, how often I split a terminal vertically then horizontally (alt-shift-d), etc. lest it be removed, since I know they don’t have infinite resources to dedicate to this single project to maintain every feature forever and ever.
cryptonector 4y ago
Terminals should not be sending telemetry. Imagine if every .exe and every .dll did that! That's not OK!
- mattl 4y ago
  What about every .com, .pif, .bat and .scr? Awful. Maybe quit using file extensions instead of calling things libraries and executables?
- nojito 4y ago
  How do they justify working on features if they don't know the users? Asking for feedback doesn't work because that inflates the vocal minority.
  - userbinator 4y ago
    You mean it doesn't work because then they wouldn't get to use "the data/algorithm says so" as an excuse.
- naikrovek 4y ago
  Why not? I want the features I use to be maintained. I am dead tired of advanced features being removed from applications I use. With web applications every single round trip to the server is logged, inherently, and there are far more than one round trip to the server than there are page loads, I assure you. So it's ok there? "oh that's just logging, not telemetry." That's what telemetry is! Google and Facebook track you (collect telemetry on you) across the entire web whether or not you use Google or Facebook AT ALL, and they each collect more information than Microsoft ever could. Google and Facebook do far worse things than Microsoft has ever done, but because they didn't ship a browser with their OS in the 1990s, they get a pass on everything, apparently. I don't get it. the lies we tell ourselves are worse than anything anyone else could ever do to us, but we tell them to ourselves anyway because it is acceptable to crap on Microsoft, for imaginary reasons, and it isn't acceptable to crap on the companies doing the real bad stuff. humanity is doomed. we are literally a garbage species.
ridiculous_fish 4y ago
It appears to be collecting information like the names of processes which are run. That is well beyond what I would consider acceptable. https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68acc480ca27533fdc7aad78b43/src/host/telemetry.cpp#L277 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68ac...
- SargeZT 4y ago
  I did some reading through the code to understand what was going on here. After a brief read, it appears that most of this telemetry code is only enabled when ETW (Event Tracing for Windows) is enabled. https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/2b202ce6d993404010337fe8ff205d7b240d60f5/src/host/tracing.hpp https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/2b202ce6d99340401... ETW is explicitly opt-in on windows and is almost exclusively used for debugging, not to mention it requires a kernel mode driver to be loaded. https://nasbench.medium.com/a-primer-on-event-tracing-for-windows-etw-997725c082bf https://nasbench.medium.com/a-primer-on-event-tracing-for-wi... I have not read all the code, but from a brief overview this tracing behavior and telemetry wouldn't be automatically activated anywhere except on Azure.
  - ridiculous_fish 4y ago
    Maybe, maybe not: 1. It looks like ETW is enabled by default since Vista. 2. The code deletes the username due to "PII issues," suggesting that something is being sent back (line 295) 3. An oblique reference to a 5% sampling rate (line 284) suggests you may not be able to tell what it's sending based on network monitoring. Apparently they are considering stopping collecting the list of processes due to "community consternation" but have not yet: https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/6103 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/6103 They could at least document what they collect so we aren't left guessing. https://github.com/MicrosoftDocs/terminal/issues/139 https://github.com/MicrosoftDocs/terminal/issues/139 All that said, it is legitimately great that the source code and these issues are available publicly.
    - SargeZT 4y ago

What's wrong with spying. But seriously, since Microsoft is sharing the source code, why not just remove the unwanted telemetry and re-compile. How easy would that be.

Lammy 4y ago

spy (/spaɪ/) v., 1 : [intransitive] to collect secret information about another country, organization or person

meowkit 4y ago
Is your runtime data “secret”? I think some people will have a hard time with this concept, but the idea of data being “private” or “secret”, by default, is disappearing. And it won’t be coming back if the world continues to digitize. If you want those attributes for your data, you’ll have to take measures. That means reading user agreements, verifying open source, using encryption intentionally. Vacuuming up data is not spying. Especially if you essentially agree to it when you accept the Windows terms of service (ethical issues of this aside).
- Lammy 4y ago
  > Especially if you essentially agree to it when you accept the Windows terms of service (ethical issues of this aside) “But the plans were on display…” “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.” “That’s the display department.” “With a flashlight.” “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.” “So had the stairs.” “But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?” “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”
DoctorOW 4y ago
"secret information" is quite a bit of a stretch...
- baisq 4y ago
  What you do with your software in the privacy of your home seems like it should be “secret”
  - Genbox 4y ago
    That is not how telemetry works. It is not spying or a privacy issue. Categorizing it as such only dilute the meaning of both terms so the real issues won't be taken serious. If you feel like a bunch of developers getting info about how many times the world clicks on a button hurts you personally, then don't install it. Calling it a privacy issue it taking it too far.
    - imwillofficial 4y ago
      It is absolutely both a spying and privacy issue. What I decide is private, or what information constitutes spying is arbitrary. I love windows terminal, but it should collect nothing by default. Another subjective opinion.
      - Genbox 4y ago
        Arh yes, the good old "everything means nothing" argument. I'm sorry to say, but words have meaning [1][2], and most of them are formally defined. And yes, I think that an HTTP POST to Microsoft's Windows Terminal team saying "UserUsedTerminalInInterative = true" is not a privacy issue, nor is it spying. Can you explain to me how this information hurt users of Windows Terminal? If it indeed is spying, it should be possible to demonstrate how it is used for hostile purposes or why such an innocuous piece of information must be kept a secret. Until then, I think it is fair for the Windows Terminal team to collect such basic telemetry for their software [1]https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spying https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spying [2]https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/privacy https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/privacy

tjoff 4y ago

Just glancing through them it looks like it wouldn't produce much meaningful data, begs the question - why have it in the first place? Since everyone involved must have known the reactions to it.

dboreham 4y ago
In my experience it's often not the case that "everyone involved" knows these things. Quite the contrary actually. Many times I'd been the guy to tap someone on the shoulder (remotely of course) to say hey that's really not something we can do.

babypuncher 4y ago

We have a habit of diluting words to the point where they are meaningless, and I think it does more to hurt important causes than support them. By labeling all forms of telemetry as "spying", we just make it so people are less likely to take actual claims of spying seriously.

disruptiveink 4y ago
That is what it once meant. "Spyware" was the term used for any process that called home regarding any information about you, your computer or your usage in the background. Calling home for anything other than "Check for updates" menu items or other actions where calling home was the explicit action the user wanted would get your name tarnished in the media and added to the signature list of software built for the sole purpose of finding and forcefully removing software like that. Practically any Android app these days would be considered "spyware" if we were still applying the "spyware" definition of the early 2000s. And we would be better off if we had never stopped.
- mortenlarsen 4y ago
  I would call that malware. Telemetry is just malware with a marketing department.
  - a1369209993 4y ago
    > Telemetry is just malware with a marketing department. Malware is more broad, and includes things that don't send any information back, like viruses. Telemetry is spyware with a marketing department.
    - mortenlarsen 4y ago
      Yes, malware is a broader category. But one that includes spyware.
- judge2020 4y ago
  I don’t see why the makers of an app aren’t entitled to seeing how the app is used for the people who opt to use it. If I’m using windows terminal, I want them to know how often I use the hot keys, how often I split a terminal vertically then horizontally (alt-shift-d), etc. lest it be removed, since I know they don’t have infinite resources to dedicate to this single project to maintain every feature forever and ever.

cryptonector 4y ago

Terminals should not be sending telemetry. Imagine if every .exe and every .dll did that! That's not OK!

mattl 4y ago
What about every .com, .pif, .bat and .scr? Awful. Maybe quit using file extensions instead of calling things libraries and executables?
nojito 4y ago
How do they justify working on features if they don't know the users? Asking for feedback doesn't work because that inflates the vocal minority.
- userbinator 4y ago
  You mean it doesn't work because then they wouldn't get to use "the data/algorithm says so" as an excuse.
naikrovek 4y ago
Why not? I want the features I use to be maintained. I am dead tired of advanced features being removed from applications I use. With web applications every single round trip to the server is logged, inherently, and there are far more than one round trip to the server than there are page loads, I assure you. So it's ok there? "oh that's just logging, not telemetry." That's what telemetry is! Google and Facebook track you (collect telemetry on you) across the entire web whether or not you use Google or Facebook AT ALL, and they each collect more information than Microsoft ever could. Google and Facebook do far worse things than Microsoft has ever done, but because they didn't ship a browser with their OS in the 1990s, they get a pass on everything, apparently. I don't get it. the lies we tell ourselves are worse than anything anyone else could ever do to us, but we tell them to ourselves anyway because it is acceptable to crap on Microsoft, for imaginary reasons, and it isn't acceptable to crap on the companies doing the real bad stuff. humanity is doomed. we are literally a garbage species.

ridiculous_fish 4y ago

It appears to be collecting information like the names of processes which are run. That is well beyond what I would consider acceptable. https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68acc480ca27533fdc7aad78b43/src/host/telemetry.cpp#L277 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/57c3953aca49f68ac...

SargeZT 4y ago
I did some reading through the code to understand what was going on here. After a brief read, it appears that most of this telemetry code is only enabled when ETW (Event Tracing for Windows) is enabled. https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/2b202ce6d993404010337fe8ff205d7b240d60f5/src/host/tracing.hpp https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/blob/2b202ce6d99340401... ETW is explicitly opt-in on windows and is almost exclusively used for debugging, not to mention it requires a kernel mode driver to be loaded. https://nasbench.medium.com/a-primer-on-event-tracing-for-windows-etw-997725c082bf https://nasbench.medium.com/a-primer-on-event-tracing-for-wi... I have not read all the code, but from a brief overview this tracing behavior and telemetry wouldn't be automatically activated anywhere except on Azure.
- ridiculous_fish 4y ago
  Maybe, maybe not: 1. It looks like ETW is enabled by default since Vista. 2. The code deletes the username due to "PII issues," suggesting that something is being sent back (line 295) 3. An oblique reference to a 5% sampling rate (line 284) suggests you may not be able to tell what it's sending based on network monitoring. Apparently they are considering stopping collecting the list of processes due to "community consternation" but have not yet: https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/6103 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/6103 They could at least document what they collect so we aren't left guessing. https://github.com/MicrosoftDocs/terminal/issues/139 https://github.com/MicrosoftDocs/terminal/issues/139 All that said, it is legitimately great that the source code and these issues are available publicly.
  - SargeZT 4y ago