7 ms·

Had to do a few doubletakes on this, but even with the recent hacks and progress on NVIDIA releasing Tegra source code, I didn't expect this for another few yea

by messe 4y ago

Had to do a few doubletakes on this, but even with the recent hacks and progress on NVIDIA releasing Tegra source code, I didn't expect this for another few years. Holy shit. It's even licensed as MIT. Even OpenBSD could conceivably port this with enough manpower. Adding enough just emulation for the userspace driver would be a lot easier than maintaining a complete linux emulator. This is one of the biggest things to happen to hardware support for open source OSes in well over a decade.

samstave 4y ago
- paisawalla 4y ago
  Nvidia have always shipped closed-source drivers, despite AMD and Intel providing open source drivers for their GPUs. This made the experience on Linux second class to Windows, where while also closed source, at least you knew that bugs would probably get fixed. Various non-core features simply wouldn't have support on Linux, e.g. Optimus. Also, shipping closed source binaries would limit which kernel you could run to supported versions. Lastly, of course, this opens the way to non-Linux OSes receiving support as well. If you just search the web for "Nvidia issues Linux" you'll see quite a few complaints. Particularly from people who have obscure configurations -- they pretty much had no chance of getting anything to work.
  - lucideer 4y ago
    This is a good technical summary of the impact but I think misses the somewhat emotive history here. See things like this infamous clip from Torvalds[0] for more context on the community sentiment around nvidia in general. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVpOyKCNZYw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVpOyKCNZYw
    - jackosdev 4y ago
      Don't even have to click to know what that is, first thing that came to mind when I saw this headline
  - bayindirh 4y ago
    > where while also closed source, at least you knew that bugs would probably get fixed. Yeah, I waited just 18 months (IIRC) for proper DisplayPort DPMS signalling, so my monitor can sleep. Linux driver bugs get fixed, albeit accidentally.
    - messe 4y ago
      I think the GP meant the windows drivers would be fixed; not the linux drivers.
  - rawoke083600 4y ago
    >If you just search the web for "Nvidia issues Linux" you'll see quite a few complaints. I'd wager that is the BULK of the linux-power-user complaints. I'm definitely never buying NVIDIA again for my next PC. The last time I decided to go for Nvidia was because of their CUDA/ML eco-system. Next time I'll just use the cloud for any ML/GPU-computing. The amount of time wasted by nvidia-driver nonsense is actually absurd !
anthk 4y ago
If the module can use MESA, good. If not, meh. >. Adding enough just emulation for the userspace driver would be a lot easier than maintaining a complete linux emulator. OpenBSD it's the best BSD on support for free (Intel) and semi free drivers such as the ones from AMD, they already adapted all the src from Linux, KMS included.
- messe 4y ago
  That's very different. The source code for the userspace portions of the MESA drivers for AMD/Intel are released under a permissive licenses, so OpenBSD (and other BSDs) have been able to modify them to compile under their OS (and get those changes committed to the original tree). With NVIDIA, the userspace portions don't use MESA, so would need some form of translation layer to work on an OS other than Linux. But, said translation layer would have limited scope; so is a lot more feasible than maintaining a general purpose translation layer indefinitely.
  - trasz 4y ago
    Official NVidia drivers natively supported FreeBSD for over a decade now.
  - anthk 4y ago
    KMS is from the kernel.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
onphonenow 4y ago
Wow! MIT is about as clean as you can go, with no real reserved advantage to dual license etc using Affero GPLv3 or similar. Not bad.
- moffkalast 4y ago
  I wonder if this is related: https://www.eetimes.com/wp-content/uploads/Nvidia-hack-security.png https://www.eetimes.com/wp-content/uploads/Nvidia-hack-secur...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - amazd 4y ago
    def seems related
    - johnny22 4y ago
      it's not at all. it's been in the works via redhat, canonical and others for probably 2 years now.
  - jimmySixDOF 4y ago
    I wonder if this release will meet the hacker's definition of open source in this case. People like that have a habit of changing the goal lines.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
jjoonathan 4y ago
That might not even be overstatement. The last few big desktop linux crash-and-burns I've run into all had display drivers as a common component. I like back-foot, underdog NVIDIA. Ascendent AMD hasn't drawn my ire yet, let's hope power corrupts slowly.
- mlyle 4y ago
  > I like back-foot, underdog NVIDIA. Ascendent AMD hasn't drawn my ire yet, let's hope power corrupts slowly. That "back-foot" "underdog" nVidia has the edge in the video market still... and 3x the market cap of AMD.
  - SemanticStrengh 4y ago
    APUs are eating the market of novideo, see e.g. the performance of the M1 iGPU
    - eru 4y ago
      Are APUs different from what we used to call integrated graphics cards?
      - SemanticStrengh 4y ago
        The difference is getting blurry. Apus have generally better communication/latency/shared resources with the CPU. The ultimate ideal of an APU is to have a unified memory with the CPU, which is the case in e.g the PS3/PS4 Despite progress in heterogenous computing (the neglected HSA), in SOCs, 3D ingerposers, high bandwidth buses interconnects and 3D memory such as HBM, the PC platform has yet to see a proper APU. In fact the M1 is probably the closest thing to an ideal APU on the market. But yes the more time pass, the more the term IGPU denote APU. AMD bought ATI because of the fusion vision, the idea that sharing silicon, resources and memory between the CPU and the GPU would be the future of computing. An unrelated but very underrated is the egpu. Egpus are external to the pc unlike a dgpu. So you can buy a thin laptop, connect it via Thunderbolt to a rtx 3080 and enjoy faster gpu performance than allowed on any laptop on the market, and enjoy a thin lightweight, silent laptop the rest of the time. Disclaimer Thunderbolt is still a moderate limiting factor in reaching peak performance.
orra 4y ago
> It's even licensed as MIT. Wouldn't be the first time. The old 2D "nv" driver was part of X11, and maintained by Nvidia employees. The catch, besides it being 2D only, was the "source code" was actually somewhat obfuscated.

by messe 4y ago

samstave 4y ago

paisawalla 4y ago
Nvidia have always shipped closed-source drivers, despite AMD and Intel providing open source drivers for their GPUs. This made the experience on Linux second class to Windows, where while also closed source, at least you knew that bugs would probably get fixed. Various non-core features simply wouldn't have support on Linux, e.g. Optimus. Also, shipping closed source binaries would limit which kernel you could run to supported versions. Lastly, of course, this opens the way to non-Linux OSes receiving support as well. If you just search the web for "Nvidia issues Linux" you'll see quite a few complaints. Particularly from people who have obscure configurations -- they pretty much had no chance of getting anything to work.
- lucideer 4y ago
  This is a good technical summary of the impact but I think misses the somewhat emotive history here. See things like this infamous clip from Torvalds[0] for more context on the community sentiment around nvidia in general. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVpOyKCNZYw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVpOyKCNZYw
  - jackosdev 4y ago
    Don't even have to click to know what that is, first thing that came to mind when I saw this headline
- bayindirh 4y ago
  > where while also closed source, at least you knew that bugs would probably get fixed. Yeah, I waited just 18 months (IIRC) for proper DisplayPort DPMS signalling, so my monitor can sleep. Linux driver bugs get fixed, albeit accidentally.
  - messe 4y ago
    I think the GP meant the windows drivers would be fixed; not the linux drivers.
- rawoke083600 4y ago
  >If you just search the web for "Nvidia issues Linux" you'll see quite a few complaints. I'd wager that is the BULK of the linux-power-user complaints. I'm definitely never buying NVIDIA again for my next PC. The last time I decided to go for Nvidia was because of their CUDA/ML eco-system. Next time I'll just use the cloud for any ML/GPU-computing. The amount of time wasted by nvidia-driver nonsense is actually absurd !

anthk 4y ago

If the module can use MESA, good. If not, meh. >. Adding enough just emulation for the userspace driver would be a lot easier than maintaining a complete linux emulator. OpenBSD it's the best BSD on support for free (Intel) and semi free drivers such as the ones from AMD, they already adapted all the src from Linux, KMS included.

messe 4y ago
That's very different. The source code for the userspace portions of the MESA drivers for AMD/Intel are released under a permissive licenses, so OpenBSD (and other BSDs) have been able to modify them to compile under their OS (and get those changes committed to the original tree). With NVIDIA, the userspace portions don't use MESA, so would need some form of translation layer to work on an OS other than Linux. But, said translation layer would have limited scope; so is a lot more feasible than maintaining a general purpose translation layer indefinitely.
- trasz 4y ago
  Official NVidia drivers natively supported FreeBSD for over a decade now.
- anthk 4y ago
  KMS is from the kernel.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

onphonenow 4y ago

Wow! MIT is about as clean as you can go, with no real reserved advantage to dual license etc using Affero GPLv3 or similar. Not bad.

moffkalast 4y ago
I wonder if this is related: https://www.eetimes.com/wp-content/uploads/Nvidia-hack-security.png https://www.eetimes.com/wp-content/uploads/Nvidia-hack-secur...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- amazd 4y ago
  def seems related
  - johnny22 4y ago
    it's not at all. it's been in the works via redhat, canonical and others for probably 2 years now.
- jimmySixDOF 4y ago
  I wonder if this release will meet the hacker's definition of open source in this case. People like that have a habit of changing the goal lines.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

jjoonathan 4y ago

That might not even be overstatement. The last few big desktop linux crash-and-burns I've run into all had display drivers as a common component. I like back-foot, underdog NVIDIA. Ascendent AMD hasn't drawn my ire yet, let's hope power corrupts slowly.

mlyle 4y ago
> I like back-foot, underdog NVIDIA. Ascendent AMD hasn't drawn my ire yet, let's hope power corrupts slowly. That "back-foot" "underdog" nVidia has the edge in the video market still... and 3x the market cap of AMD.
- SemanticStrengh 4y ago
  APUs are eating the market of novideo, see e.g. the performance of the M1 iGPU
  - eru 4y ago
    Are APUs different from what we used to call integrated graphics cards?
    - SemanticStrengh 4y ago
      The difference is getting blurry. Apus have generally better communication/latency/shared resources with the CPU. The ultimate ideal of an APU is to have a unified memory with the CPU, which is the case in e.g the PS3/PS4 Despite progress in heterogenous computing (the neglected HSA), in SOCs, 3D ingerposers, high bandwidth buses interconnects and 3D memory such as HBM, the PC platform has yet to see a proper APU. In fact the M1 is probably the closest thing to an ideal APU on the market. But yes the more time pass, the more the term IGPU denote APU. AMD bought ATI because of the fusion vision, the idea that sharing silicon, resources and memory between the CPU and the GPU would be the future of computing. An unrelated but very underrated is the egpu. Egpus are external to the pc unlike a dgpu. So you can buy a thin laptop, connect it via Thunderbolt to a rtx 3080 and enjoy faster gpu performance than allowed on any laptop on the market, and enjoy a thin lightweight, silent laptop the rest of the time. Disclaimer Thunderbolt is still a moderate limiting factor in reaching peak performance.

orra 4y ago

> It's even licensed as MIT. Wouldn't be the first time. The old 2D "nv" driver was part of X11, and maintained by Nvidia employees. The catch, besides it being 2D only, was the "source code" was actually somewhat obfuscated.