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And in turn, your comment is a pretty common disingenuous representation of the bill from its supporters. No, it is not about "sex", it is about "sexual orient

And in turn, your comment is a pretty common disingenuous representation of the bill from its supporters. No, it is not about "sex", it is about "sexual orientation", which is generally understood to be whether one is gay or straight or bisexual or asexual. It's often used in place of the more accurate technical term "romantic orientation", which is about who one is romantically attracted to, but the term isn't in common usage. In any case, it is not related to sexual intercourse. Children can understand it, and it is manifestly appropriate for children of any age. The support for this bill has seemingly overwhelmingly been based on this deliberate conflation between discussing sexual/romantic orientation and discussing sexual intercourse. If you check the bill's text, it's not just "material in the curriculum", it's "classroom instruction", which would include discussion, which could be argued to include any mention of being gay. And it's not just under 4th grade, it's for any instruction not deemed "age-appropriate", which, in a country that still teaches abstinence-only sex-ed in some states, could mean anything. That these links are tenuous is no comfort; if the exceptions aren't strong enough to get the case thrown out immediately, it still leaves the school open for lawsuits, and the school will self-police to avoid them. And you'd have to be truly naïve to think that this will be applied to straight and gay relationships in equal measure. Plus, there's all the language about parental access to health records that are pretty clearly aimed at requiring the school help out gay and trans kids to their possibly abusive parents, which nobody ever mentions for some reason.

brigandish 4y ago
As you both seem to disagree about the actual text (though, in truth, probably agree as "sex" and "sexual orientation" are sometimes synonyms), I had to look it up. From [1], a summary: > Parental Rights in Education; Requires district school boards to adopt procedures that comport with certain provisions of law for notifying student's parent of specified information; requires such procedures to reinforce fundamental right of parents to make decisions regarding upbringing & control of their children; prohibits school district from adopting procedures or student support forms that prohibit school district personnel from notifying parent about specified information or that encourage student to withhold from parent such information; prohibits school district personnel from discouraging or prohibiting parental notification & involvement in critical decisions affecting student's mental, emotional, or physical well-being; prohibits classroom discussion about sexual orientation or gender identity in certain grade levels; requires school districts to notify parents of healthcare services; authorizes parent to bring action against school district to obtain declaratory judgment; provides for additional award of injunctive relief, damages, & reasonable attorney fees & court costs to certain parents. The line being discussed here is prohibits classroom discussion about sexual orientation or gender identity in certain grade levels. The relevant part of the full text linked (in a pdf named PDF.pdf, which made me chuckle) is: > 3. Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards. That's as far as it goes, and the definitions of what is "age-appropriate" or "developmentally appropriate", among other things, are not given. Hence, it appears to me, that any claims as to what it really means, by either side of this debate (or either of the fringe elements, as the majority in the middle appear to for these rules[2], however vague) are unable to be substantiated either way. I suggest everyone calms down until the actual details come to light. [1] https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557 https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557 [2] https://floridianpress.com/2022/03/new-poll-52-of-florida-democrat-voters-back-dont-say-gay-bill/ https://floridianpress.com/2022/03/new-poll-52-of-florida-de...
- pseudalopex 4y ago
  When are sex and sexual orientation synonyms? Some children in kindergarten through grade 3 have parents in same sex relationships. Some socially transition. An actual detail of the law is it prohibits even age appropriate discussion at those levels. Another poll found 62% of Americans oppose legislation that would prohibit classroom lessons about sexual orientation or gender identity in elementary school.[1] Are Florida Democrats much more conservative? Do many Americans think grade 4 is the right time? Did the people who said somewhat no in the Florida poll mean yes with limits? [1] https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/10-americans-oppose-laws-prohibiting-lgbtq-lessons-elementary/story?id=83393478 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/10-americans-oppose-laws-pro...
  - brigandish 4y ago
    > When are sex and sexual orientation synonyms? Talking about sexual orientation is at times a subset of "discussions about sex". Hence, given a charitable reading of both your comment and the comment you replied to, you may both be talking about the same thing. > Some children in kindergarten through grade 3 have parents in same sex relationships. I fail to see the relevance. > Some socially transition. I don't know what that is. > An actual detail of the law is it prohibits even age appropriate discussion at those levels. As I pointed out, the law doesn't define what age-appropriate means. If you have information to the contrary, please share it. > Another poll found 62% of Americans oppose legislation that would prohibit classroom lessons about sexual orientation or gender identity in elementary school. It's not a national law, so again, I don't see how it's relevant.
    - pseudalopex 4y ago
      There are times talking about sexual orientation and talking about sex overlap. This isn't. bavell stated they meant sex independent of sexual orientation specifically. a_shovel stated they meant sexual orientation outside the context of sex specifically. A search engine can define socially transitioning for you. The relevance of children having same sex parents or socially transitioning is sexual orientation and gender identity are visible to children in age appropriate ways. Not invisible until puberty. The law not defining age appropriate is irrelevant to the total ban through grade 3. The national poll casts doubt on the presented interpretation of the Florida poll.

brigandish 4y ago

As you both seem to disagree about the actual text (though, in truth, probably agree as "sex" and "sexual orientation" are sometimes synonyms), I had to look it up. From [1], a summary: > Parental Rights in Education; Requires district school boards to adopt procedures that comport with certain provisions of law for notifying student's parent of specified information; requires such procedures to reinforce fundamental right of parents to make decisions regarding upbringing & control of their children; prohibits school district from adopting procedures or student support forms that prohibit school district personnel from notifying parent about specified information or that encourage student to withhold from parent such information; prohibits school district personnel from discouraging or prohibiting parental notification & involvement in critical decisions affecting student's mental, emotional, or physical well-being; prohibits classroom discussion about sexual orientation or gender identity in certain grade levels; requires school districts to notify parents of healthcare services; authorizes parent to bring action against school district to obtain declaratory judgment; provides for additional award of injunctive relief, damages, & reasonable attorney fees & court costs to certain parents. The line being discussed here is prohibits classroom discussion about sexual orientation or gender identity in certain grade levels. The relevant part of the full text linked (in a pdf named PDF.pdf, which made me chuckle) is: > 3. Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards. That's as far as it goes, and the definitions of what is "age-appropriate" or "developmentally appropriate", among other things, are not given. Hence, it appears to me, that any claims as to what it really means, by either side of this debate (or either of the fringe elements, as the majority in the middle appear to for these rules[2], however vague) are unable to be substantiated either way. I suggest everyone calms down until the actual details come to light. [1] https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557 https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557 [2] https://floridianpress.com/2022/03/new-poll-52-of-florida-democrat-voters-back-dont-say-gay-bill/ https://floridianpress.com/2022/03/new-poll-52-of-florida-de...

pseudalopex 4y ago
When are sex and sexual orientation synonyms? Some children in kindergarten through grade 3 have parents in same sex relationships. Some socially transition. An actual detail of the law is it prohibits even age appropriate discussion at those levels. Another poll found 62% of Americans oppose legislation that would prohibit classroom lessons about sexual orientation or gender identity in elementary school.[1] Are Florida Democrats much more conservative? Do many Americans think grade 4 is the right time? Did the people who said somewhat no in the Florida poll mean yes with limits? [1] https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/10-americans-oppose-laws-prohibiting-lgbtq-lessons-elementary/story?id=83393478 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/10-americans-oppose-laws-pro...
- brigandish 4y ago
  > When are sex and sexual orientation synonyms? Talking about sexual orientation is at times a subset of "discussions about sex". Hence, given a charitable reading of both your comment and the comment you replied to, you may both be talking about the same thing. > Some children in kindergarten through grade 3 have parents in same sex relationships. I fail to see the relevance. > Some socially transition. I don't know what that is. > An actual detail of the law is it prohibits even age appropriate discussion at those levels. As I pointed out, the law doesn't define what age-appropriate means. If you have information to the contrary, please share it. > Another poll found 62% of Americans oppose legislation that would prohibit classroom lessons about sexual orientation or gender identity in elementary school. It's not a national law, so again, I don't see how it's relevant.
  - pseudalopex 4y ago
    There are times talking about sexual orientation and talking about sex overlap. This isn't. bavell stated they meant sex independent of sexual orientation specifically. a_shovel stated they meant sexual orientation outside the context of sex specifically. A search engine can define socially transitioning for you. The relevance of children having same sex parents or socially transitioning is sexual orientation and gender identity are visible to children in age appropriate ways. Not invisible until puberty. The law not defining age appropriate is irrelevant to the total ban through grade 3. The national poll casts doubt on the presented interpretation of the Florida poll.