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I assume you meant this piece with "scanning of conversations": >As mentioned, detecting ‘grooming’ would have a positive impact on the fundamental rights of p

I assume you meant this piece with "scanning of conversations": >As mentioned, detecting ‘grooming’ would have a positive impact on the fundamental rights of potential victims especially by contributing to the prevention of abuse; if swift action is taken, it may even prevent a child from suffering harm. At the same time, the detection process is generally speaking the most intrusive one for users (compared to the detection of the dissemination of known and new child sexual abuse material), since it requires automatically scanning through texts in interpersonal communications. It is important to bear in mind in this regard that such scanning is often the only possible way to detect it and that the technology used does not ‘understand’ the content of the communications but rather looks for known, pre-identified patterns that indicate potential grooming. Detection technologies have also already acquired a high degree of accuracy, although human oversight and review remain necessary, and indicators of ‘grooming’ are becoming ever more reliable with time, as the algorithms learn. That whole paragraph sounds a lot more terrifying and intrusive. At least they admit the flaws, but I haven't quite had the best experience with the EU's way of handling this stuff.

Syonyk 4y ago
That's one of them, yes. I've not had the time to read the whole thing today, and probably won't have time, so I'm trying to encourage people to dig through it a bit themselves and get a feel for just how "But the Children!" it is, as a reason to violate every bit of privacy they think they can get away with.
skummetmaelk 4y ago
95% of men aged 20-30 will be flagged for telling their equally aged friends to "suck their dick".
- usrn 4y ago
  A lot of people are going to start using XMPP/OMEMO.
  - rdl 4y ago
    I thought most of these proposals were around doing device-local analysis and reporting (I suppose specific clients might not, but if they can mandate this at the device level, and make it default on iOS and Android, they're going to get almost all users.)
    - uoaei 4y ago
      Device-local, yes, but I thought it was only for apps under Apple's direct purview, ie, iMessage.
  - judge2020 4y ago
    No reason an XMPP client wouldn't be forced to include this as well. Reminder that iMessage and Signal are encrypted communications but are surely a target of this sort of lawmaking.
    - usrn 4y ago
      With XMPP though you can use a smaller FOSS client on a desktop PC. iMessage and Signal force you to use a recent closed source client on a phone.
      - t0bia_s 4y ago
        Try Molly for Signal on Android.
        usrn 4y ago
        I probably won't, I don't have a signal account
      - _Algernon_ 4y ago
        If the person you are chatting with doesn't follow suit, you'll still be analyzed, just on their end instead.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
kingcharles 4y ago
This is so 1984. Even if this remotely worked, how would they tell between actual minors and adults roleplaying?
- Syonyk 4y ago
  Smash down doors, get embarrassed a few times, pass legislation to ban "roleplaying as a minor in text conversations." Then there's no reason to be embarrassed again! More practically, I would assume "age of the users of a device" is a well-derived bit of information available to anyone who asks for it with the proper letterhead. Or who just helps themselves to it.
  - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
    My initial thought was to give adults an adult service, but that also means adults need to provide information (which a lot of adults wouldn't be okay with) so they can filter the kids out. Then you'd still have to run the proposal on every service kids and adults have access to. Then on top of that, you still need to filter out cases where its just minors, but at the same time you can't filter all of them because it might be a case of sexual violence between minors. It's a headache no matter how I look at it.
  - causi 4y ago
    Legislation of a similar tone is already the law in many places. Some places ban pornography of adults with flat chests. Some places ban lewd drawings of characters who aren't sufficiently curvaceous. Many platforms hosting content such as literotica and erotic audio recordings ban content that describes or roleplays as minors.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > This is so 1984 1984 has never been about this. It's about the weaknesses of men, that would gladly change a reduction of the chocolate ration into an increase, because it's their job to lie and alter the past, believing they are doing god's work. Also, in 1984 surveillance is secret, not publicly stated in a formal document visible by everybody. Better examples of 1984 in action: the DDR, the NSA.
np- 4y ago
> “becoming ever more reliable with time, as the algorithms learn“ I mean considering Amazon has put in kajillions of dollars on their learning algorithms and yet now in 2022 those algorithms still aren’t even smart enough to figure out trivial stuff, like that I’m probably not gonna buy a second air fryer immediately after buying a first one, and stop advertising them to me. What hope do we have for this new algorithm?
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  It just showcases either the ones making the decision are naïve or they have an ulterior motive. They tried to justify it with the following footnote: >For example, Microsoft reports that the accuracy of its grooming detection tool is 88%, meaning that out of 100 conversations flagged as possible criminal solicitation of children, 12 can be excluded upon review and will not be reported to law enforcement; see annex 8 of the Impact Assessment. Of course, anyone could poke a dozen holes in this statement. "Possible", so there still needs to be a ton of review. Microsoft reporting on its own detection tool. Etc.
  - wsc981 4y ago
    The ulterior motive is gaining total control over citizens in EU member states. Which is also why the EU digital ID [0] will soon be introduced and a Euro CBDC will follow in the coming years. It's quite likely the Euro CBDC wallet will be linked (part of) the EU digital ID. I expect at some point the EU digital ID will be required to use when accessing the internet or perhaps when signing up for email, creating a Twitter account and such. This EU digital ID will EU member states will become a carbon copy of China. People will worry what they can say out of fear that they will not be able to spend their hard-earned Euro CBDC. --- [0]: https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-europe-digital-id/ https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-europe-digital-id/
    - koonsolo 4y ago
      As long as we have democracy, we can vote on any party we want, also on the ones that would take our own country out of EU. So unless you can show me how a move away from democracy can happen, we won't turn into china soon.

Syonyk 4y ago

That's one of them, yes. I've not had the time to read the whole thing today, and probably won't have time, so I'm trying to encourage people to dig through it a bit themselves and get a feel for just how "But the Children!" it is, as a reason to violate every bit of privacy they think they can get away with.

skummetmaelk 4y ago

95% of men aged 20-30 will be flagged for telling their equally aged friends to "suck their dick".

usrn 4y ago
A lot of people are going to start using XMPP/OMEMO.
- rdl 4y ago
  I thought most of these proposals were around doing device-local analysis and reporting (I suppose specific clients might not, but if they can mandate this at the device level, and make it default on iOS and Android, they're going to get almost all users.)
  - uoaei 4y ago
    Device-local, yes, but I thought it was only for apps under Apple's direct purview, ie, iMessage.
- judge2020 4y ago
  No reason an XMPP client wouldn't be forced to include this as well. Reminder that iMessage and Signal are encrypted communications but are surely a target of this sort of lawmaking.
  - usrn 4y ago
    With XMPP though you can use a smaller FOSS client on a desktop PC. iMessage and Signal force you to use a recent closed source client on a phone.
    - t0bia_s 4y ago
      Try Molly for Signal on Android.
      - usrn 4y ago
        I probably won't, I don't have a signal account
    - _Algernon_ 4y ago
      If the person you are chatting with doesn't follow suit, you'll still be analyzed, just on their end instead.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

kingcharles 4y ago

This is so 1984. Even if this remotely worked, how would they tell between actual minors and adults roleplaying?

Syonyk 4y ago
Smash down doors, get embarrassed a few times, pass legislation to ban "roleplaying as a minor in text conversations." Then there's no reason to be embarrassed again! More practically, I would assume "age of the users of a device" is a well-derived bit of information available to anyone who asks for it with the proper letterhead. Or who just helps themselves to it.
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  My initial thought was to give adults an adult service, but that also means adults need to provide information (which a lot of adults wouldn't be okay with) so they can filter the kids out. Then you'd still have to run the proposal on every service kids and adults have access to. Then on top of that, you still need to filter out cases where its just minors, but at the same time you can't filter all of them because it might be a case of sexual violence between minors. It's a headache no matter how I look at it.
- causi 4y ago
  Legislation of a similar tone is already the law in many places. Some places ban pornography of adults with flat chests. Some places ban lewd drawings of characters who aren't sufficiently curvaceous. Many platforms hosting content such as literotica and erotic audio recordings ban content that describes or roleplays as minors.
peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> This is so 1984 1984 has never been about this. It's about the weaknesses of men, that would gladly change a reduction of the chocolate ration into an increase, because it's their job to lie and alter the past, believing they are doing god's work. Also, in 1984 surveillance is secret, not publicly stated in a formal document visible by everybody. Better examples of 1984 in action: the DDR, the NSA.

np- 4y ago

> “becoming ever more reliable with time, as the algorithms learn“ I mean considering Amazon has put in kajillions of dollars on their learning algorithms and yet now in 2022 those algorithms still aren’t even smart enough to figure out trivial stuff, like that I’m probably not gonna buy a second air fryer immediately after buying a first one, and stop advertising them to me. What hope do we have for this new algorithm?

BlargMcLarg 4y ago
It just showcases either the ones making the decision are naïve or they have an ulterior motive. They tried to justify it with the following footnote: >For example, Microsoft reports that the accuracy of its grooming detection tool is 88%, meaning that out of 100 conversations flagged as possible criminal solicitation of children, 12 can be excluded upon review and will not be reported to law enforcement; see annex 8 of the Impact Assessment. Of course, anyone could poke a dozen holes in this statement. "Possible", so there still needs to be a ton of review. Microsoft reporting on its own detection tool. Etc.
- wsc981 4y ago
  The ulterior motive is gaining total control over citizens in EU member states. Which is also why the EU digital ID [0] will soon be introduced and a Euro CBDC will follow in the coming years. It's quite likely the Euro CBDC wallet will be linked (part of) the EU digital ID. I expect at some point the EU digital ID will be required to use when accessing the internet or perhaps when signing up for email, creating a Twitter account and such. This EU digital ID will EU member states will become a carbon copy of China. People will worry what they can say out of fear that they will not be able to spend their hard-earned Euro CBDC. --- [0]: https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-europe-digital-id/ https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-europe-digital-id/
  - koonsolo 4y ago
    As long as we have democracy, we can vote on any party we want, also on the ones that would take our own country out of EU. So unless you can show me how a move away from democracy can happen, we won't turn into china soon.