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I was super upset after visiting China and returning to the USA. Our immigration people were so much more authoritarian scary than the Chinese had been. And the

I was super upset after visiting China and returning to the USA. Our immigration people were so much more authoritarian scary than the Chinese had been. And the Chinese had this cool smiley computer interface where you rated the chinese immigration official for their interaction on the spot. So China was not only friendlier and more welcoming, but also more accountable. We really need to check ourselves in America. Our Federal Government is out of control (I say this as someone who was failed by the Courts only to have them completely reverse themselves with respect to their rulings against me when COVID came because it would have been inconvenient to follow their precedent because people would die so they finally had actually follow the law, not the Bureau of Prison's Court supported 'interpretation' of the law, and as someone who was abused (I guess we no longer use the torture term) while incarcerated). I can't imagine the horror of having the Feds have so much power over my life as an immigrant does. Or the fact that you can loose it all in a heartbeat (as happened to my friends in the bay areas in the 90s when they lost their jobs and their VISA sponsors).

daniel-cussen 4y ago
Yeah I don't know most of the TSA was just doing their job the best they could. I've come to respect their mandate a lot, reading the history of aviation and how it's all a crazy game to not go splat. It's not the fact of traveling, it's the fact of traveling ON AN AIRPLANE. Everything about it. The basic nature of aviation is it's closely tied to suicide. It's like interwoven with suicide. They are the two threads of one fabric, that give it a color in between, like cloth woven with gold. It's really goddamn dangerous to fly, you're relying on so many parts to work right, despite letting random guys on the street in their pijamas on board with their cellphones, and asking for fucking internet connectivity, no. I'm completely with Louis CK on this one. We should all fly strapped down completely, upright, I guess with slightly bigger windows as a compromise, realizing the fact of flight and being like "I am flying through the air at nearly the speed of sound, crossing continents and oceans in a mere matter of hours". Just respect it a fuck of a lot more, if flying were easy we'd have flown much sooner. In fact rockets are much older and easier to make than flying machines, rockets got started a little after gunpowder, about the time of the Mongol invasion, and flying machines date to the turn of the century. People think rockets are harder because the space race came after the big improvement in plane speed, nah. Well they're studied together, aero-astrophysics. Basically not going splat. So 9/11 was about going splat. That's literally what it was, Muhammad Ata and his conspiracy of Al-Qaeda Sunni Muslims decided, let's all go splat with a big plane, at the same building, at the same time. And they did! Because the whole difficulty of flying is not going splat, going splat on purpose is easy (although they were artistic about it, did a lot of difficult maneuvers). Suicide and aviation, interwoven. So back to TSA, I don't know they actually respond well when you ask them about anything, or thank them for keeping the planes from falling out of the sky. It's not a transportation or border thing, it's an aviation thing. And one time, when I was repatriating to the states, an agent asked me like what company did you work for, I never heard of that company. As though it mattered, resumes are irrelevant to citizenship once you have it. So yeah there are moments that are rougher. I think I've had good luck.
- maxFlow 4y ago
  > Yeah I don't know most of the TSA was just doing their job the best they could. [...] The basic nature of aviation is it's closely tied to suicide. It's like interwoven with suicide. I would swap "suicide" for "risk". And while I do concede that traveling on an airplane is inherently risky (and argueably one of our most remarkable achievements as a species), I think it's dangerous to deny that TSA - or any other security enforcement body for that matter - is not susceptible to power abuse by their representatives; we have years of evidence to prove it, especially nowadays with social media. Too much blank-cheque power is given them, with little accountability (again, on account of the risk). (Incidentally, airport security is a nice topic to play with error rates conceptually, e.g. precision, recall, etc.) > It's really goddamn dangerous to fly, you're relying on so many parts to work right Indeed, the latest systemic failure coming directly from the making and selling of planes. An activity where once safety was held as a sacrosant goal, it's now been placed second to profits and corporate interests (see Boeing).
  - daniel-cussen 4y ago
    No, don't swap "suicide" for "risk." It's no secret among pilots. And it's enshrined in the law. America loves the Wright Brothers, two states fought over the right to claim them on their state currency (Ohio and North Carolina). History loves the Wright Brothers. The world loves the Wright Brothers. They were the most famous people on earth (together with their sister) in 1911. And that's why you don't get put in a psych ward for flying, because America loves aviation, no other reason. And they practically never flew together. Then, at most one of them would die at a time, and the other could live to continue defying death. They were the first great aviators to fly and not die. They crashed sometimes and it was brutal, identical to falling out of a building. There were endless deaths in early aviation, all the time, all the time. In the early 30's the Army was charged with paper mail by airplane, and the weather was terrible, and everyone equated aviation with suicide. Young soldiers dying most days of the week. I think even Roosevelt said it was suicidal, that what these pilots were tasked with meant leading them to slaughter. Like heroism, which I carry out all the time, also intrinsically suicidal, for instance all the times I've fought alone, outnumbered. Everyone says that's suicidal. So it turns out it's not actually that dangerous, any more than aviation, you just need to act perfectly, meaning no mistakes.
foogazi 4y ago
> And the Chinese had this cool smiley computer interface where you rated the chinese immigration official for their interaction on the spot. TBH I think I would click the smiliest smiley in any foreign country
- notch656a 4y ago
  Sadly US gov would probably discipline any officer who had 'too much smiley.'
tablespoon 4y ago
> I was super upset after visiting China and returning to the USA. Our immigration people were so much more authoritarian scary than the Chinese had been. And the Chinese had this cool smiley computer interface where you rated the chinese immigration official for their interaction on the spot. So China was not only friendlier and more welcoming, but also more accountable. I've seen those machines at Ikea in the US, though they did seem more common in China. However, it's almost unbelievably superficial to rate "authoritarianess" by the anecdotal cheeriness of front like officials.
- crossroadsguy 4y ago
  But that’s specifically what OP mentioned - their own experience with front line officers and their conduct. So what else can be there if not “anecdotal”? Every commenter citing a separate research paper including surveys from millions (or thousands?) of people? Or is it just fashionable on hn to drop a “ha, anecdotal!” comment?
jltsiren 4y ago
Authoritarian countries are often good at maintaining a friendly facade. They understand that the legitimacy of the regime depends on keeping the middle class happy, or at least under control. When they consider someone beneficial to the regime, they will try to treat them well. They are not cartoon villains that treat people badly just because they can. They usually need a reason for that. I've seen the same differences in the attitudes of Chinese and American immigration authorities. And if my memories of childhood visits to the USSR are correct, the same differences existed between Soviet and American authorities. I believe the main reason is that America is fundamentally suspicious of anything foreign. Authorities are more likely to see threats than benefits in international dealings.
- throwaway48375 4y ago
  Maybe the US is just good at maintaining a facade that they aren't authoritarian. The US border agents are acting in an objectively authoritarian manner while the Chinese border agents are not and yet somehow you conclude that the Chinese are the real authoritarians. It seems like you are a victim of propaganda.
  - PlanckMeasure80 4y ago
    Ok *deletes your comment, welds you into your home, and blocks searches for anything containing your username*
    - 29083011397778 4y ago
      I don't think the point is "China is not an authoritarian regime", but rather that America is more authoritarian than most Americans think, or are willing to admit.
      - throwaway48375 4y ago
        thank you
popularonion 4y ago
If you’re a foreigner in China, they have no problem tracking exactly where you go and who you talk to after you enter the country. They don’t have much to lose by putting a happy face on their customs process.
CogitoCogito 4y ago
Out of all the immigration officials you deal with when entering the US (i.e. not in the back room, but those presenting a "face" for the country), such an incredibly large amount are such toolbags. They have no manners, show no respect, nothing. It's not all of them of course, but far more than is acceptable. I don't know how to put it any other way. They are simply power-tripping losers. It's frankly embarrassing for the country.

daniel-cussen 4y ago

Yeah I don't know most of the TSA was just doing their job the best they could. I've come to respect their mandate a lot, reading the history of aviation and how it's all a crazy game to not go splat. It's not the fact of traveling, it's the fact of traveling ON AN AIRPLANE. Everything about it. The basic nature of aviation is it's closely tied to suicide. It's like interwoven with suicide. They are the two threads of one fabric, that give it a color in between, like cloth woven with gold. It's really goddamn dangerous to fly, you're relying on so many parts to work right, despite letting random guys on the street in their pijamas on board with their cellphones, and asking for fucking internet connectivity, no. I'm completely with Louis CK on this one. We should all fly strapped down completely, upright, I guess with slightly bigger windows as a compromise, realizing the fact of flight and being like "I am flying through the air at nearly the speed of sound, crossing continents and oceans in a mere matter of hours". Just respect it a fuck of a lot more, if flying were easy we'd have flown much sooner. In fact rockets are much older and easier to make than flying machines, rockets got started a little after gunpowder, about the time of the Mongol invasion, and flying machines date to the turn of the century. People think rockets are harder because the space race came after the big improvement in plane speed, nah. Well they're studied together, aero-astrophysics. Basically not going splat. So 9/11 was about going splat. That's literally what it was, Muhammad Ata and his conspiracy of Al-Qaeda Sunni Muslims decided, let's all go splat with a big plane, at the same building, at the same time. And they did! Because the whole difficulty of flying is not going splat, going splat on purpose is easy (although they were artistic about it, did a lot of difficult maneuvers). Suicide and aviation, interwoven. So back to TSA, I don't know they actually respond well when you ask them about anything, or thank them for keeping the planes from falling out of the sky. It's not a transportation or border thing, it's an aviation thing. And one time, when I was repatriating to the states, an agent asked me like what company did you work for, I never heard of that company. As though it mattered, resumes are irrelevant to citizenship once you have it. So yeah there are moments that are rougher. I think I've had good luck.

maxFlow 4y ago
> Yeah I don't know most of the TSA was just doing their job the best they could. [...] The basic nature of aviation is it's closely tied to suicide. It's like interwoven with suicide. I would swap "suicide" for "risk". And while I do concede that traveling on an airplane is inherently risky (and argueably one of our most remarkable achievements as a species), I think it's dangerous to deny that TSA - or any other security enforcement body for that matter - is not susceptible to power abuse by their representatives; we have years of evidence to prove it, especially nowadays with social media. Too much blank-cheque power is given them, with little accountability (again, on account of the risk). (Incidentally, airport security is a nice topic to play with error rates conceptually, e.g. precision, recall, etc.) > It's really goddamn dangerous to fly, you're relying on so many parts to work right Indeed, the latest systemic failure coming directly from the making and selling of planes. An activity where once safety was held as a sacrosant goal, it's now been placed second to profits and corporate interests (see Boeing).
- daniel-cussen 4y ago
  No, don't swap "suicide" for "risk." It's no secret among pilots. And it's enshrined in the law. America loves the Wright Brothers, two states fought over the right to claim them on their state currency (Ohio and North Carolina). History loves the Wright Brothers. The world loves the Wright Brothers. They were the most famous people on earth (together with their sister) in 1911. And that's why you don't get put in a psych ward for flying, because America loves aviation, no other reason. And they practically never flew together. Then, at most one of them would die at a time, and the other could live to continue defying death. They were the first great aviators to fly and not die. They crashed sometimes and it was brutal, identical to falling out of a building. There were endless deaths in early aviation, all the time, all the time. In the early 30's the Army was charged with paper mail by airplane, and the weather was terrible, and everyone equated aviation with suicide. Young soldiers dying most days of the week. I think even Roosevelt said it was suicidal, that what these pilots were tasked with meant leading them to slaughter. Like heroism, which I carry out all the time, also intrinsically suicidal, for instance all the times I've fought alone, outnumbered. Everyone says that's suicidal. So it turns out it's not actually that dangerous, any more than aviation, you just need to act perfectly, meaning no mistakes.

foogazi 4y ago

> And the Chinese had this cool smiley computer interface where you rated the chinese immigration official for their interaction on the spot. TBH I think I would click the smiliest smiley in any foreign country

notch656a 4y ago
Sadly US gov would probably discipline any officer who had 'too much smiley.'

tablespoon 4y ago

> I was super upset after visiting China and returning to the USA. Our immigration people were so much more authoritarian scary than the Chinese had been. And the Chinese had this cool smiley computer interface where you rated the chinese immigration official for their interaction on the spot. So China was not only friendlier and more welcoming, but also more accountable. I've seen those machines at Ikea in the US, though they did seem more common in China. However, it's almost unbelievably superficial to rate "authoritarianess" by the anecdotal cheeriness of front like officials.

crossroadsguy 4y ago
But that’s specifically what OP mentioned - their own experience with front line officers and their conduct. So what else can be there if not “anecdotal”? Every commenter citing a separate research paper including surveys from millions (or thousands?) of people? Or is it just fashionable on hn to drop a “ha, anecdotal!” comment?

jltsiren 4y ago

Authoritarian countries are often good at maintaining a friendly facade. They understand that the legitimacy of the regime depends on keeping the middle class happy, or at least under control. When they consider someone beneficial to the regime, they will try to treat them well. They are not cartoon villains that treat people badly just because they can. They usually need a reason for that. I've seen the same differences in the attitudes of Chinese and American immigration authorities. And if my memories of childhood visits to the USSR are correct, the same differences existed between Soviet and American authorities. I believe the main reason is that America is fundamentally suspicious of anything foreign. Authorities are more likely to see threats than benefits in international dealings.

throwaway48375 4y ago
Maybe the US is just good at maintaining a facade that they aren't authoritarian. The US border agents are acting in an objectively authoritarian manner while the Chinese border agents are not and yet somehow you conclude that the Chinese are the real authoritarians. It seems like you are a victim of propaganda.
- PlanckMeasure80 4y ago
  Ok *deletes your comment, welds you into your home, and blocks searches for anything containing your username*
  - 29083011397778 4y ago
    I don't think the point is "China is not an authoritarian regime", but rather that America is more authoritarian than most Americans think, or are willing to admit.
    - throwaway48375 4y ago
      thank you

popularonion 4y ago

If you’re a foreigner in China, they have no problem tracking exactly where you go and who you talk to after you enter the country. They don’t have much to lose by putting a happy face on their customs process.

CogitoCogito 4y ago

Out of all the immigration officials you deal with when entering the US (i.e. not in the back room, but those presenting a "face" for the country), such an incredibly large amount are such toolbags. They have no manners, show no respect, nothing. It's not all of them of course, but far more than is acceptable. I don't know how to put it any other way. They are simply power-tripping losers. It's frankly embarrassing for the country.