11 ms·

If I'm reading this right, the crux of the issue was overworked engineers and unproductive meetings that got heated between experts? And the resultant stress le

If I'm reading this right, the crux of the issue was overworked engineers and unproductive meetings that got heated between experts? And the resultant stress led to brain damage? Personally, I don't know any software teams that aren't understaffed at best. Any project that has multiple stakeholders is going to have some meetings that feel unproductive with key leaders arguing for their best interests. That's just the natural order of collaboration. These are the kinds of posts that remind me how privileged high-skilled software engineers are. I am the first in my family to not work in some form of construction and can't help but imagine how someone like OP would fare in that environment. > I spent the next couple years unemployed, working with my physicians to try and recover my health while occasionally writing code. I’m happy to report that I’m partially recovered at this point and being paid to work on open source, but I’ll never be the same. Being able to take off 2 years to attend to personal health is a luxury pretty exclusive to tech (insofar as how available/attainable it is).

malcolmgreaves 4y ago
What is your message -- the author shouldn't share their story of a toxic workplace because they made more money than folks in other toxic workplaces?
- teakettle42 4y ago
  I see an emotionally unstable author more than I see a toxic workplace.
  - kibwen 4y ago
    It is prudent to err the side of giving the benefit of the doubt to the entity with relatively less power. I see no reason to instinctively jump to Google's defense here, they are more than capable of defending themselves.
  - didibus 4y ago
    The whole team left, so it doesn't seem like the author was a snowflake in this case.
    - SquareWheel 4y ago
      Though looking at the timelines, the team left or had been moved around after a two year period. So it wasn't necessarily an abrupt change.
- question_away 4y ago
  If OP's description is what constitutes a "toxic workplace" then any service job/Amazon warehouse/construction job is also toxic. From what I read, I would describe OP's team as severely dysfunctional and the bar for "toxic" should be higher (generally, indicating some level of malice). I think it's damaging to dilute terms like "toxic" by using them to describe a situation that is generally stressful and widely experienced.
  - kibwen 4y ago
    Just because something is widely experienced doesn't mean we must dismiss criticisms of it.
    - question_away 4y ago
      No, but if we're lowering the bar for what constitutes "toxic" to something that is widely experienced then that is inherently dismissive of actually toxic work environments that are not widely experienced.
      - joepie91_ 4y ago
        Toxic work environments are widespread. Their widespread nature doesn't somehow magically make them not qualify as 'toxic'. And if anything, it should prompt wider changes in industry, because clearly it is not an isolated incident.
  - eropple 4y ago
    > If OP's description is what constitutes a "toxic workplace" then any service job/Amazon warehouse/construction job is also toxic. > I think it's damaging to dilute terms like "toxic" by using them to describe a situation that is generally stressful and widely experienced. This characterization is inches away from an epiphany.
    - question_away 4y ago
      I think every nihilist has the "epiphany" you're implying. My point is that any service job/Amazon warehouse/construction job is generally stressful, has unproductive meetings, and callous bosses but this is not my bar for "toxic". I'd raise that a bit higher to apply to Activision, Goldman, etc. where there's a level of malice.
- 1minusp 4y ago
  Share, yes absolutely. But also, keep in perspective, that these are ~$500K+ jobs and the (certainly smart) folks in these jobs can also move to other parts of google that arent as hard to deal with. So, it is understandable that others might not consider this to be a bad deal overall.
kevingadd 4y ago
Your other comments aside, just for the record: I was able to take the time off because I saved my income instead of spending it (also thanks to having paid into disability insurance programs for decades). Between rent, food and health insurance I used up all my savings. Certainly having any money saved up at all is a privilege, and I hope it's one more people are able to have in the future.
cmeacham98 4y ago
What's the point of this post? Because OP is more privileged than a construction worker their complaints are invalid? All jobs should be like your family's experience in construction?
- question_away 4y ago
  From what I read, "toxic" is an exaggeration of the work environment and undermines the message that OP is trying to convey.
didibus 4y ago
I've worked some construction in the past, didn't find it worse, it actually left me feeling better at the end of the day, there's something positive about the physical activity from it. My point is, I don't think these comparison judgement are useful. Ever heard: "can't compare two people's pain"? Think about the purpose of your comment? What's the end goal? To convince people nothing should be done about anything and for everyone to just suck it up? Seems that's a bad attitude to be honest. If your family's construction work environment is toxic and treats them badly, you should be complaining about it and bring attention to it so hopefully we can all demand better for them. Similarly here, someone stepped up to try and raise the standards by pointing out at real issues faced in some organizations that fail on all front, fails to deliver to the business, the customer, the employees, it's worth talking about in my opinion. How else you get anything to become better otherwise?
- question_away 4y ago
  My point is that adopting terms like "toxic" to describe this team's culture is over-selling and detracts from workplaces that are actually toxic. If we're dropping the bar of a toxic workplace to be: trouble sleeping, questioning self-worth and general anxiety then what language do we use for workplaces that involve actual malice? Co-workers sabotaging others, misogynistic comments, abusive messages, etc are all toxic but clearly on a different level than described in the post. > If you're family's construction work environment is toxic and treats them badly, you should be complaining about it and bring attention to it so hopefully we can all demand better for them. That sounds nice, but there are workplaces where complaining will make life worse for you. And for certain union jobs, it's very difficult to leave.
  - outworlder 4y ago
    There's toxic workplaces, and there's actually _hostile_ ones. We don't need to be literally abused for a workplace to be toxic.
  - didibus 4y ago
    To me, toxic implies something that's bad for you but in insidious ways. That means it's slow and subtle, you wouldn't even believe it, at first you'd think this is great, these people are happy, this job looks great, but years later, you've got memory loss, needed to take physical disability, and the whole team quit... What the hell? I feel it perfectly describes toxicity. What can cause such a thing? What's the root cause? It seems there are certain things about the human psyche we've yet to understand that somehow can be very damaging to it. It means that if say there's a person whose the perpetrator, they might not even realize. If a manager causes the environment to make people feel crappy, they might not understand how, why, even if that's not their intent. Malice can be toxic too, but malice describes the intent, someone could purposefully make the environment toxic, still toxic, but the intent was malicious. I find toxicity describes the environment, it's not because no one was purposely poisoning the well that it can't still be toxic. Now if people are being abusive, psychologically or physically, in obvious ways, I would just call that an abusive workplace. That's just the way I interpret those words. Now if you're simply trying to say we should prioritize our efforts first to workplaces that are really bad in obvious and extreme ways, downright abusive, I wouldn't disagree, but is this really detracting? That's why I said, if you know of worse offenders, bring them up, don't just deny this particular offense. I know that labor in other countries is much worse, but I can't as easily enact changes in other countries. I know that some jobs treat employees really poorly and pays terribly, and I'm not okay with that and support labor rights, higher wages, and would love to see more paid leave, shorter hours, better safety protocols. Simultaneously I happen to work in tech, so I'm also interested in seeing those jobs improve, they have different kind of issues that seem more insidious, they're also worth talking about in my opinion. I would agree with you if somehow tech worker complaints was drowning out the voices of other workers who have more obvious abuses going on. I just don't think that's the case.
throwaway675309 4y ago
And any worker employed at Foxconn could just as easily read your post about how you and your family were privileged to be able to work in adequately compensated construction jobs with OSHA laws, minimum wage, etc. Or a person who could only find a job working in a coal mine in the Appalachia mountains, or (insert less privileged position here)... See how meaningless your comparison is?
kcplate 4y ago
I pulled the same vibe from this. My attitude here is if you don’t like your job and its making you unhealthy AND you work in an industry where just having been at Google on your resume will get you hired just about anywhere else…you should just leave. Why sacrifice health over that? I have done some shit work prior to tech. My worst tech job in the most “toxic” environment was heads and tails better than working in an industrial laundry washing shop rags, diapers, and restaurant mats.
- Beaver117 4y ago
  Xooglers aren't just handed jobs. They still have to pass interviews, and have to live up to a higher expectation because of their background. Stress and medical issues still affect them too.
  - question_away 4y ago
    Are we really going to pretend that Xooglers struggle landing jobs in tech? Relative to what the average software engineer goes through, they are "handed jobs".
  - kcplate 4y ago
    > have to live up to a higher expectation because of their background So you think their background doesn’t give them a leg up in recruiting, interviewing, or hiring, but once they are hired they have to live up to a higher expectation? Sorry, but they get preference and deference all the way through the process. I have seen it first hand. Also, employers should have high expectations of former Google employees, they are supposed to be the brightest of the bunch.
drewcoo 4y ago
Wishing that mommy and daddy would just stop arguing is absolutely not a position of privilege.
- question_away 4y ago
  Huh?
sfink 4y ago
Based on your other comments, it seems your main complaint is the use of the word "toxic". Which I agree is overused and has been expanded to cover more ground than it used to, but the OP is far from the first to apply it more broadly. This is well within the range of how the word is used today, especially when referring to "toxic work environments". As for the rest, I'm having trouble interpreting your comment any differently from "paper cuts aren't that bad, so why is this person complaining about a stab wound?" Understaffed is common and not in itself that big a deal; working in an environment where the system is visibly working against you, where you lack agency and people are forthright about how your well-being doesn't matter? That even the quality and success of your project doesn't really matter to them? That's not a paper cut. I used to work in construction as well, and am from a family of carpenters stretching several generations. I've also worked directly with the OP, though briefly. But I also know a fair amount about her work. So I think I have a relevant perspective; whether you respect it or not is up to you. But my experience is that Katelyn is very good technically. She's no whiner, she's persevered through quite a few tough situations that I know of, and what happened with the rest of the team kind of backs up her perspective on the situation. I agree that we software people are privileged, but we also have pressures that people in construction don't have and it's worthwhile looking at them seriously instead of invalidating them because some things are easier. (Construction and carpentry have their own distinct pressures, but also their own benefits. I would far rather be a software developer personally. My dad would far rather be a carpenter. I work on interesting problems and make more money. He works outside and directly improves people's lives, and becomes long-term friends with many of them.)
- question_away 4y ago
  > Based on your other comments, it seems your main complaint is the use of the word "toxic". Which I agree is overused and has been expanded to cover more ground than it used to, but the OP is far from the first to apply it more broadly. This is well within the range of how the word is used today, especially when referring to "toxic work environments". I've seen it used as broadly but very rarely - generally, "toxic environments" are ones where intentional malice is involved. > people are forthright about how your well-being doesn't matter Where in OP's post is this said? This would actually constitute malintent for me and elevate the situation to toxic but I can't find where this is said. It's possible given your experience that you know this happened, but I don't see it in the post itself. My main issue is the use of "toxic" coupled with the post's advocacy for helping others recognize when they're in a toxic workplace. My concern is that anyone identifying with the general stress described could then accuse their coworkers/managers of manufacturing a toxic work environment. God forbid I have a meeting that someone else thought was unproductive and then accuses me of creating a toxic workplace.
rektide 4y ago
Most software frankly isn't really important. It might make or break a company, but that's a pretty limited fault domain; humanity will be fine. This post is about something that is glaringly more obvious & important than that. The pressure here is immensely real, the need & overwhelming desire to do better, to make it good is flashing in bright neon signs to me, is extrinsically vital. I don't see any of that recognition written in to your privilege-call-out. To me, it's really hard hearing something so vital to the entire technology world (https://hn.algolia.com/?query=wasm&sort=byDate https://hn.algolia.com/?query=wasm&sort=byDate shows 32 submissions in the past 22 days, and misses all those posts using "webassembly" instead of wasm) is a poorly supported train-wreck, rampant with infighting, with garden-variety shitty management not doing much to support this vital endeavor. The typical salt-of-the-earth engineers being left to their own devices & expected to just chug along is not a "normal" I'm comfortable with for such a vital cornerstone of modern technology. You're making this out to be a story about software development & privilege. But I have a very very very different view of this as a much more indicative tale, of how core common capacities humanity is building have a very hard time making it along. I think we all have challenges, for sure, but this is a work that so much hope & aspiration is pinned upon, that so much else is launching upon. Focusing on dis-empathy for the individual is not my take here.
- question_away 4y ago
  From the post: > My hope is that this story will help people recognize toxic cultures in their own workplaces This is the part I'm commenting in reply to. I simply don't see the justification of "toxic" in the environment described (I think it's definitely dysfunctional and callous) and took issue with the stated goal for others to use this experience as an understanding of what constitutes "toxic".
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    Causing brain damage is as toxic as anything needs to be.

malcolmgreaves 4y ago

What is your message -- the author shouldn't share their story of a toxic workplace because they made more money than folks in other toxic workplaces?

teakettle42 4y ago
I see an emotionally unstable author more than I see a toxic workplace.
- kibwen 4y ago
  It is prudent to err the side of giving the benefit of the doubt to the entity with relatively less power. I see no reason to instinctively jump to Google's defense here, they are more than capable of defending themselves.
- didibus 4y ago
  The whole team left, so it doesn't seem like the author was a snowflake in this case.
  - SquareWheel 4y ago
    Though looking at the timelines, the team left or had been moved around after a two year period. So it wasn't necessarily an abrupt change.
question_away 4y ago
If OP's description is what constitutes a "toxic workplace" then any service job/Amazon warehouse/construction job is also toxic. From what I read, I would describe OP's team as severely dysfunctional and the bar for "toxic" should be higher (generally, indicating some level of malice). I think it's damaging to dilute terms like "toxic" by using them to describe a situation that is generally stressful and widely experienced.
- kibwen 4y ago
  Just because something is widely experienced doesn't mean we must dismiss criticisms of it.
  - question_away 4y ago
    No, but if we're lowering the bar for what constitutes "toxic" to something that is widely experienced then that is inherently dismissive of actually toxic work environments that are not widely experienced.
    - joepie91_ 4y ago
      Toxic work environments are widespread. Their widespread nature doesn't somehow magically make them not qualify as 'toxic'. And if anything, it should prompt wider changes in industry, because clearly it is not an isolated incident.
- eropple 4y ago
  > If OP's description is what constitutes a "toxic workplace" then any service job/Amazon warehouse/construction job is also toxic. > I think it's damaging to dilute terms like "toxic" by using them to describe a situation that is generally stressful and widely experienced. This characterization is inches away from an epiphany.
  - question_away 4y ago
    I think every nihilist has the "epiphany" you're implying. My point is that any service job/Amazon warehouse/construction job is generally stressful, has unproductive meetings, and callous bosses but this is not my bar for "toxic". I'd raise that a bit higher to apply to Activision, Goldman, etc. where there's a level of malice.
1minusp 4y ago
Share, yes absolutely. But also, keep in perspective, that these are ~$500K+ jobs and the (certainly smart) folks in these jobs can also move to other parts of google that arent as hard to deal with. So, it is understandable that others might not consider this to be a bad deal overall.

kevingadd 4y ago

Your other comments aside, just for the record: I was able to take the time off because I saved my income instead of spending it (also thanks to having paid into disability insurance programs for decades). Between rent, food and health insurance I used up all my savings. Certainly having any money saved up at all is a privilege, and I hope it's one more people are able to have in the future.

cmeacham98 4y ago

What's the point of this post? Because OP is more privileged than a construction worker their complaints are invalid? All jobs should be like your family's experience in construction?

question_away 4y ago
From what I read, "toxic" is an exaggeration of the work environment and undermines the message that OP is trying to convey.

didibus 4y ago

I've worked some construction in the past, didn't find it worse, it actually left me feeling better at the end of the day, there's something positive about the physical activity from it. My point is, I don't think these comparison judgement are useful. Ever heard: "can't compare two people's pain"? Think about the purpose of your comment? What's the end goal? To convince people nothing should be done about anything and for everyone to just suck it up? Seems that's a bad attitude to be honest. If your family's construction work environment is toxic and treats them badly, you should be complaining about it and bring attention to it so hopefully we can all demand better for them. Similarly here, someone stepped up to try and raise the standards by pointing out at real issues faced in some organizations that fail on all front, fails to deliver to the business, the customer, the employees, it's worth talking about in my opinion. How else you get anything to become better otherwise?

question_away 4y ago
My point is that adopting terms like "toxic" to describe this team's culture is over-selling and detracts from workplaces that are actually toxic. If we're dropping the bar of a toxic workplace to be: trouble sleeping, questioning self-worth and general anxiety then what language do we use for workplaces that involve actual malice? Co-workers sabotaging others, misogynistic comments, abusive messages, etc are all toxic but clearly on a different level than described in the post. > If you're family's construction work environment is toxic and treats them badly, you should be complaining about it and bring attention to it so hopefully we can all demand better for them. That sounds nice, but there are workplaces where complaining will make life worse for you. And for certain union jobs, it's very difficult to leave.
- outworlder 4y ago
  There's toxic workplaces, and there's actually _hostile_ ones. We don't need to be literally abused for a workplace to be toxic.
- didibus 4y ago
  To me, toxic implies something that's bad for you but in insidious ways. That means it's slow and subtle, you wouldn't even believe it, at first you'd think this is great, these people are happy, this job looks great, but years later, you've got memory loss, needed to take physical disability, and the whole team quit... What the hell? I feel it perfectly describes toxicity. What can cause such a thing? What's the root cause? It seems there are certain things about the human psyche we've yet to understand that somehow can be very damaging to it. It means that if say there's a person whose the perpetrator, they might not even realize. If a manager causes the environment to make people feel crappy, they might not understand how, why, even if that's not their intent. Malice can be toxic too, but malice describes the intent, someone could purposefully make the environment toxic, still toxic, but the intent was malicious. I find toxicity describes the environment, it's not because no one was purposely poisoning the well that it can't still be toxic. Now if people are being abusive, psychologically or physically, in obvious ways, I would just call that an abusive workplace. That's just the way I interpret those words. Now if you're simply trying to say we should prioritize our efforts first to workplaces that are really bad in obvious and extreme ways, downright abusive, I wouldn't disagree, but is this really detracting? That's why I said, if you know of worse offenders, bring them up, don't just deny this particular offense. I know that labor in other countries is much worse, but I can't as easily enact changes in other countries. I know that some jobs treat employees really poorly and pays terribly, and I'm not okay with that and support labor rights, higher wages, and would love to see more paid leave, shorter hours, better safety protocols. Simultaneously I happen to work in tech, so I'm also interested in seeing those jobs improve, they have different kind of issues that seem more insidious, they're also worth talking about in my opinion. I would agree with you if somehow tech worker complaints was drowning out the voices of other workers who have more obvious abuses going on. I just don't think that's the case.

throwaway675309 4y ago

And any worker employed at Foxconn could just as easily read your post about how you and your family were privileged to be able to work in adequately compensated construction jobs with OSHA laws, minimum wage, etc. Or a person who could only find a job working in a coal mine in the Appalachia mountains, or (insert less privileged position here)... See how meaningless your comparison is?

kcplate 4y ago

I pulled the same vibe from this. My attitude here is if you don’t like your job and its making you unhealthy AND you work in an industry where just having been at Google on your resume will get you hired just about anywhere else…you should just leave. Why sacrifice health over that? I have done some shit work prior to tech. My worst tech job in the most “toxic” environment was heads and tails better than working in an industrial laundry washing shop rags, diapers, and restaurant mats.

Beaver117 4y ago
Xooglers aren't just handed jobs. They still have to pass interviews, and have to live up to a higher expectation because of their background. Stress and medical issues still affect them too.
- question_away 4y ago
  Are we really going to pretend that Xooglers struggle landing jobs in tech? Relative to what the average software engineer goes through, they are "handed jobs".
- kcplate 4y ago
  > have to live up to a higher expectation because of their background So you think their background doesn’t give them a leg up in recruiting, interviewing, or hiring, but once they are hired they have to live up to a higher expectation? Sorry, but they get preference and deference all the way through the process. I have seen it first hand. Also, employers should have high expectations of former Google employees, they are supposed to be the brightest of the bunch.

drewcoo 4y ago

Wishing that mommy and daddy would just stop arguing is absolutely not a position of privilege.

question_away 4y ago
Huh?

sfink 4y ago

Based on your other comments, it seems your main complaint is the use of the word "toxic". Which I agree is overused and has been expanded to cover more ground than it used to, but the OP is far from the first to apply it more broadly. This is well within the range of how the word is used today, especially when referring to "toxic work environments". As for the rest, I'm having trouble interpreting your comment any differently from "paper cuts aren't that bad, so why is this person complaining about a stab wound?" Understaffed is common and not in itself that big a deal; working in an environment where the system is visibly working against you, where you lack agency and people are forthright about how your well-being doesn't matter? That even the quality and success of your project doesn't really matter to them? That's not a paper cut. I used to work in construction as well, and am from a family of carpenters stretching several generations. I've also worked directly with the OP, though briefly. But I also know a fair amount about her work. So I think I have a relevant perspective; whether you respect it or not is up to you. But my experience is that Katelyn is very good technically. She's no whiner, she's persevered through quite a few tough situations that I know of, and what happened with the rest of the team kind of backs up her perspective on the situation. I agree that we software people are privileged, but we also have pressures that people in construction don't have and it's worthwhile looking at them seriously instead of invalidating them because some things are easier. (Construction and carpentry have their own distinct pressures, but also their own benefits. I would far rather be a software developer personally. My dad would far rather be a carpenter. I work on interesting problems and make more money. He works outside and directly improves people's lives, and becomes long-term friends with many of them.)

question_away 4y ago
> Based on your other comments, it seems your main complaint is the use of the word "toxic". Which I agree is overused and has been expanded to cover more ground than it used to, but the OP is far from the first to apply it more broadly. This is well within the range of how the word is used today, especially when referring to "toxic work environments". I've seen it used as broadly but very rarely - generally, "toxic environments" are ones where intentional malice is involved. > people are forthright about how your well-being doesn't matter Where in OP's post is this said? This would actually constitute malintent for me and elevate the situation to toxic but I can't find where this is said. It's possible given your experience that you know this happened, but I don't see it in the post itself. My main issue is the use of "toxic" coupled with the post's advocacy for helping others recognize when they're in a toxic workplace. My concern is that anyone identifying with the general stress described could then accuse their coworkers/managers of manufacturing a toxic work environment. God forbid I have a meeting that someone else thought was unproductive and then accuses me of creating a toxic workplace.

rektide 4y ago

Most software frankly isn't really important. It might make or break a company, but that's a pretty limited fault domain; humanity will be fine. This post is about something that is glaringly more obvious & important than that. The pressure here is immensely real, the need & overwhelming desire to do better, to make it good is flashing in bright neon signs to me, is extrinsically vital. I don't see any of that recognition written in to your privilege-call-out. To me, it's really hard hearing something so vital to the entire technology world (https://hn.algolia.com/?query=wasm&sort=byDate https://hn.algolia.com/?query=wasm&sort=byDate shows 32 submissions in the past 22 days, and misses all those posts using "webassembly" instead of wasm) is a poorly supported train-wreck, rampant with infighting, with garden-variety shitty management not doing much to support this vital endeavor. The typical salt-of-the-earth engineers being left to their own devices & expected to just chug along is not a "normal" I'm comfortable with for such a vital cornerstone of modern technology. You're making this out to be a story about software development & privilege. But I have a very very very different view of this as a much more indicative tale, of how core common capacities humanity is building have a very hard time making it along. I think we all have challenges, for sure, but this is a work that so much hope & aspiration is pinned upon, that so much else is launching upon. Focusing on dis-empathy for the individual is not my take here.

question_away 4y ago
From the post: > My hope is that this story will help people recognize toxic cultures in their own workplaces This is the part I'm commenting in reply to. I simply don't see the justification of "toxic" in the environment described (I think it's definitely dysfunctional and callous) and took issue with the stated goal for others to use this experience as an understanding of what constitutes "toxic".
- ncmncm 4y ago
  Causing brain damage is as toxic as anything needs to be.