4 ms·

Is your work in tech supposed to hold a sacred scalar linear multiple of the average labor cost ( read: salary of people who produce food and goods) of life’s n

Is your work in tech supposed to hold a sacred scalar linear multiple of the average labor cost ( read: salary of people who produce food and goods) of life’s necessities? So many entitled people arguing for an economic caste system… Arguing that your wage should always match or beat inflation is arguing for defacto permanent income inequality. You’re literally saying your work is always the same amount more valuable than the average labor cost increase incorporated into inflation numbers.

giantg2 4y ago
"So many entitled people arguing for an economic caste system…" I don't see that anywhere in my argument. "Arguing that your wage should always match or beat inflation is arguing for defacto permanent income inequality." Do you have an alternative approach? I have not heard any mainstream argument for setting all salaries/wages to be equal. You have to define income inequality and then determine what level of inequality is acceptable. Should a CEO make more than a worker? In my opinion, probably. Should they make 100x more? I don't think so. If I could make the same money flipping burgers as I can working as a dev (let's say around the median salary of $40k), I'd quit today and most other devs would too. Why should I go to college? Why should I endure the longer hours/on-call? Why deal with the frustration and office BS? Different jobs make different money because the work carries different value. We should protect those at the bottom and try to make it fair. But fair doesn't mean literal income equality with everyone making $20/hr regardless of job, performance, etc (ie equal and equitable are different). The fact that workers are seeing real wages decline since the 70s is the problem. If you adjusted them for inflation, then income inequality is not as much of an issue. (You'd still have to adjust capital gains taxes and the real increase in things like executive pay, but at least indexing wages to inflation would have benefited things on the worker side.) "You’re literally saying your work is always the same amount more valuable than the average labor cost increase incorporated into inflation numbers" Not if everyone gets the inflation adjustment as they do in that other country - Denmark maybe? The discrepancy can be adjusted by increasing the floor, as that impact will raise the lower end more than the rest of the market (eg the people that need the raise most get the biggest impact while those not at the bottom see minimal effect upto a certain level). You're literally arguing against yourself. You're saying that workers should not get inflation adjustments. Where do you think that money goes? It goes into the pockets of the executives and the investors (capital instead of labor). On top of all this, you wrongly assume I'm some high earning person. I make less than $100k and live in a moderately high cost of living area.
- greedo 4y ago
  Ok, time to put your money where your mouth is. In-N-Out pays its store managers over $100K/year. Their workers make around $25/hour which scales out to $50k/year for a full-time employee. And trust me, most devs I know couldn't handle flipping burgers. Dealing with customers, dealing with managers, dealing with cleaning restrooms, dealing with late nights/early mornings. So don't shit on burger flippers...
  - giantg2 4y ago
    "So don't shit on burger flippers..." I'm not. I'm saying if everything paid the same (true income "equality", really equity), then why wouldn't I want to do a job, that is stereotyped as easy and typically low paid? There are tons of burnt out devs who want to quit and do something else. There aren't any In-N-Out in my state. If I could get a manager position, then I'd consider it (although the range starts below $100k, especially outside of CA). "And trust me, most devs I know couldn't handle flipping burgers." Maybe. Many of the devs I know seem like the could (or have). But there are some that seem like they would struggle. I've worked in a warehouse, I've worked in billing, I've worked as a janitor, I've worked retail sales, and I've worked as a house painter. I've even done a weekend gig as a good worker at a BBQ stand. Food service is not my main choice (I'd take that over painting though), but your example pays much better than any of these did. Every job has tough stuff and everyone likes to assume others couldn't do it because they don't have as much grit or whatever, including devs. I think this is mostly just bias.
    - greedo 4y ago
      I switched careers from fast food and restaurant ownership to IT. Almost every dev/engineer/sysadmin I know would last about a week before walking out. We whine about having to do daily standups. Try standing on your feet for 8 hour shifts. I think the people who are stereotyping these jobs as easy are idiots who don't know what they're talking about. The work is tedious, usually hot, with few breaks, with crappy uniforms, with bosses that generally are bad, and with few or crappy benefits. I brought up In-N-Out because while the job is hot, and probably tedious, the employees seem to genuinely enjoy their jobs. Either that or the management has done an incredible job of brainwashing them. But for other places, it's not that the employees are any worse than in IT. When I worked fast food in high school, one of my coworkers was the valedictorian in my class who became a doctor on the Navy's dime. Another scored a perfect SAT (in 1982) and got a full ride to Caltech. One guy was so smart, he reverse engineered the displays on some of the kitchen computers to mock the management. We had a real mix of people, both economically and socially diverse. Times have changed, and the US doesn't have as much social or economic mobility, but it was an interesting time. The only difference I see between the people I work with now, and the people I worked with in my previous life is how much we're paid, and the working conditions. There are assholes in my current company, and assholes in fast food.

giantg2 4y ago

"So many entitled people arguing for an economic caste system…" I don't see that anywhere in my argument. "Arguing that your wage should always match or beat inflation is arguing for defacto permanent income inequality." Do you have an alternative approach? I have not heard any mainstream argument for setting all salaries/wages to be equal. You have to define income inequality and then determine what level of inequality is acceptable. Should a CEO make more than a worker? In my opinion, probably. Should they make 100x more? I don't think so. If I could make the same money flipping burgers as I can working as a dev (let's say around the median salary of $40k), I'd quit today and most other devs would too. Why should I go to college? Why should I endure the longer hours/on-call? Why deal with the frustration and office BS? Different jobs make different money because the work carries different value. We should protect those at the bottom and try to make it fair. But fair doesn't mean literal income equality with everyone making $20/hr regardless of job, performance, etc (ie equal and equitable are different). The fact that workers are seeing real wages decline since the 70s is the problem. If you adjusted them for inflation, then income inequality is not as much of an issue. (You'd still have to adjust capital gains taxes and the real increase in things like executive pay, but at least indexing wages to inflation would have benefited things on the worker side.) "You’re literally saying your work is always the same amount more valuable than the average labor cost increase incorporated into inflation numbers" Not if everyone gets the inflation adjustment as they do in that other country - Denmark maybe? The discrepancy can be adjusted by increasing the floor, as that impact will raise the lower end more than the rest of the market (eg the people that need the raise most get the biggest impact while those not at the bottom see minimal effect upto a certain level). You're literally arguing against yourself. You're saying that workers should not get inflation adjustments. Where do you think that money goes? It goes into the pockets of the executives and the investors (capital instead of labor). On top of all this, you wrongly assume I'm some high earning person. I make less than $100k and live in a moderately high cost of living area.

greedo 4y ago
Ok, time to put your money where your mouth is. In-N-Out pays its store managers over $100K/year. Their workers make around $25/hour which scales out to $50k/year for a full-time employee. And trust me, most devs I know couldn't handle flipping burgers. Dealing with customers, dealing with managers, dealing with cleaning restrooms, dealing with late nights/early mornings. So don't shit on burger flippers...
- giantg2 4y ago
  "So don't shit on burger flippers..." I'm not. I'm saying if everything paid the same (true income "equality", really equity), then why wouldn't I want to do a job, that is stereotyped as easy and typically low paid? There are tons of burnt out devs who want to quit and do something else. There aren't any In-N-Out in my state. If I could get a manager position, then I'd consider it (although the range starts below $100k, especially outside of CA). "And trust me, most devs I know couldn't handle flipping burgers." Maybe. Many of the devs I know seem like the could (or have). But there are some that seem like they would struggle. I've worked in a warehouse, I've worked in billing, I've worked as a janitor, I've worked retail sales, and I've worked as a house painter. I've even done a weekend gig as a good worker at a BBQ stand. Food service is not my main choice (I'd take that over painting though), but your example pays much better than any of these did. Every job has tough stuff and everyone likes to assume others couldn't do it because they don't have as much grit or whatever, including devs. I think this is mostly just bias.
  - greedo 4y ago
    I switched careers from fast food and restaurant ownership to IT. Almost every dev/engineer/sysadmin I know would last about a week before walking out. We whine about having to do daily standups. Try standing on your feet for 8 hour shifts. I think the people who are stereotyping these jobs as easy are idiots who don't know what they're talking about. The work is tedious, usually hot, with few breaks, with crappy uniforms, with bosses that generally are bad, and with few or crappy benefits. I brought up In-N-Out because while the job is hot, and probably tedious, the employees seem to genuinely enjoy their jobs. Either that or the management has done an incredible job of brainwashing them. But for other places, it's not that the employees are any worse than in IT. When I worked fast food in high school, one of my coworkers was the valedictorian in my class who became a doctor on the Navy's dime. Another scored a perfect SAT (in 1982) and got a full ride to Caltech. One guy was so smart, he reverse engineered the displays on some of the kitchen computers to mock the management. We had a real mix of people, both economically and socially diverse. Times have changed, and the US doesn't have as much social or economic mobility, but it was an interesting time. The only difference I see between the people I work with now, and the people I worked with in my previous life is how much we're paid, and the working conditions. There are assholes in my current company, and assholes in fast food.