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Removing him only removed him from your conversation. He is not silenced. Same with banning the Trump reddit forums, what this achieved was to shift them to the

Removing him only removed him from your conversation. He is not silenced. Same with banning the Trump reddit forums, what this achieved was to shift them to their own platform where they, no longer hear opposing views or being challenged. And to me it seems worse than ever in their views and speech, shockingly though sometimes. Using something like the Paradox of tolerance logic is dangerous itself. People love to find justification to their own bad deeds, and this smells like something along those lines to me. The 'I cant be too tolerant or you will use it against me'. I think the key flaw in the Paradox you quote is "tolerant without limit". I agree if this were true, but society has never had this and never will, it's such an absolute. As fairly standard wherever you live you will have libel and slander laws, rules about promoting things illegal, or encouraging violence. Overall is a giant problem and is full of grey zones without a perfect answer, but in that I feel its important to steer strongly to the higher principle, be it tolerance or free speech etc, and accept there is cost to higher principles, as sad as that is, but this is far better than allowing a society to swing the other way.

Izkata 4y ago
> Same with banning the Trump reddit forums, what this achieved was to shift them to their own platform where they, no longer hear opposing views or being challenged. They had actually already moved around 4 months before the ban. The official action was just virtue signaling, it was already dead on reddit (I think their mods had actually locked it and prevented posting).
aceazzameen 4y ago
No, he's not silenced. He has a newsletter. But he isn't amplified to the heights that he was before either, and less likely to attract new followers. No one's reporting his newsletters. I'm not looking forward to seeing responses to Trump tweets across social and news media when he returns. There was no escaping it then. The guy adores the limelight from daily controversies and he's going to capitalize on it again.
- MrMan 4y ago
  he has a very well funded social media platform of his own 1
  - aceazzameen 4y ago
    Right, as a bubble only.
spicyusername 4y ago
> this smells like something along those lines to me. > is full of grey zones That is exactly why it's called a "paradox". We all recognize that we cannot allow tyrannical actors to act unchallenged, but the act of challenging their behavior itself often can be seen as a form of tyranny. This is why we need an entire system for interpreting and enforcing the laws in a nuanced and careful way. The world is too complex for a simple system of rules to work without consideration to the context of each individual circumstance. Generally, I agree with what you're saying, though. Sometimes it does feel like all paths lead to a consolidation of power, no matter how well intentioned things began.
mindslight 4y ago
> Same with banning the Trump reddit forums, what this achieved was to shift them to their own platform where they, no longer hear opposing views or being challenged. And to me it seems worse than ever in their views and speech, shockingly though sometimes. There is another aspect to this - the benefit to the rest of the world from not being derailed by memetic diarrhea. Trumpism absolutely paralyzed the mainstream discourse by swamping it with nonsense. Even if you were against the nonsense, you ended up having to deal with it, by addressing it or distancing yourself from it. It took much more empathy to read nuance in others' points and not simply write them off as more Trumpist nonsense. Also, see all the times that Trump had a position that had some merit, but yet the opposition Party still staked out a position contrary to it. The concern isn't whether the Trumpists' dialog grows ever more extreme, but rather whether their numbers grow or diminish. Trumpism is made attractive by real problems, to which it promises simplistic not-even-wrong answers. The fundamental way to make it less attractive is to address those problems, making for a more compelling constructive alternative. This requires being able to debate workable solutions in good faith, without being derailed by the trolling attractor. Twitter itself may or may not be a platform for constructive debate (their format is horrible and they mostly lucked into the position), but this is the overarching societal dynamic as I see it.
- ModernMech 4y ago
  > It took much more empathy to read nuance in others' points and not simply write them off as more Trumpist nonsense. Also, see all the times that Trump had a position that had some merit, but yet the opposition Party still staked out a position contrary to it. Isn't this an actual instance of "the boy who cried wolf"?
- dmatech 4y ago
  That is largely the media's fault. They covered Trump 24/7 during his entire presidency like it was some sort of addiction. They could have covered anything they wanted (and they ignored numerous newsworthy stories). Perhaps we need a media with the self-discipline to look away from a car crash for 5 minutes.
  - 4y ago

Izkata 4y ago

> Same with banning the Trump reddit forums, what this achieved was to shift them to their own platform where they, no longer hear opposing views or being challenged. They had actually already moved around 4 months before the ban. The official action was just virtue signaling, it was already dead on reddit (I think their mods had actually locked it and prevented posting).

aceazzameen 4y ago

No, he's not silenced. He has a newsletter. But he isn't amplified to the heights that he was before either, and less likely to attract new followers. No one's reporting his newsletters. I'm not looking forward to seeing responses to Trump tweets across social and news media when he returns. There was no escaping it then. The guy adores the limelight from daily controversies and he's going to capitalize on it again.

MrMan 4y ago
he has a very well funded social media platform of his own 1
- aceazzameen 4y ago
  Right, as a bubble only.

spicyusername 4y ago

> this smells like something along those lines to me. > is full of grey zones That is exactly why it's called a "paradox". We all recognize that we cannot allow tyrannical actors to act unchallenged, but the act of challenging their behavior itself often can be seen as a form of tyranny. This is why we need an entire system for interpreting and enforcing the laws in a nuanced and careful way. The world is too complex for a simple system of rules to work without consideration to the context of each individual circumstance. Generally, I agree with what you're saying, though. Sometimes it does feel like all paths lead to a consolidation of power, no matter how well intentioned things began.

mindslight 4y ago

> Same with banning the Trump reddit forums, what this achieved was to shift them to their own platform where they, no longer hear opposing views or being challenged. And to me it seems worse than ever in their views and speech, shockingly though sometimes. There is another aspect to this - the benefit to the rest of the world from not being derailed by memetic diarrhea. Trumpism absolutely paralyzed the mainstream discourse by swamping it with nonsense. Even if you were against the nonsense, you ended up having to deal with it, by addressing it or distancing yourself from it. It took much more empathy to read nuance in others' points and not simply write them off as more Trumpist nonsense. Also, see all the times that Trump had a position that had some merit, but yet the opposition Party still staked out a position contrary to it. The concern isn't whether the Trumpists' dialog grows ever more extreme, but rather whether their numbers grow or diminish. Trumpism is made attractive by real problems, to which it promises simplistic not-even-wrong answers. The fundamental way to make it less attractive is to address those problems, making for a more compelling constructive alternative. This requires being able to debate workable solutions in good faith, without being derailed by the trolling attractor. Twitter itself may or may not be a platform for constructive debate (their format is horrible and they mostly lucked into the position), but this is the overarching societal dynamic as I see it.

ModernMech 4y ago
> It took much more empathy to read nuance in others' points and not simply write them off as more Trumpist nonsense. Also, see all the times that Trump had a position that had some merit, but yet the opposition Party still staked out a position contrary to it. Isn't this an actual instance of "the boy who cried wolf"?
dmatech 4y ago
That is largely the media's fault. They covered Trump 24/7 during his entire presidency like it was some sort of addiction. They could have covered anything they wanted (and they ignored numerous newsworthy stories). Perhaps we need a media with the self-discipline to look away from a car crash for 5 minutes.
- 4y ago