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Thank you for your honest answers. For what it's worth, I don't think you're a bad person for voting the way you did. > the EU didn't embody the principles i

Thank you for your honest answers. For what it's worth, I don't think you're a bad person for voting the way you did. > the EU didn't embody the principles it claimed to stand for (and of which I approved). But is it possible that you were holding it to a higher standard than you hold your own country to? > Moderating the atavistic instincts of other countries isn't a good reason for being in a political union. Turning that around, though: reducing the moderation on those atavistic instincts is not a good way to further the principles you claim to support. In any case, there are other, more positive, reasons to be an international trade and peace agreement than just a duty to look out for your neighbours. > I have half a chance of voting them out. It's not possible to vote Hungary and Poland off the EU Commission. But the problem isn't the nationality of the commissioners, because you're not a racist, right? The Council of Ministers only nominates the various members of the Commission, in agreement with the nominated President, and the 27 members as a team are then subject to a vote of approval by the European Parliament.[0] So you had more chance of voting out an atavistic Hungarian or Polish commissioner (through your MEP, and President) than you had of determining the composition of Boris Johnson's cabinet (especially considering the more proportional voting system used by the EU). > Greece acceded despite not meeting the financial requirements for membership; it was then financially crushed by Germany (more specifically, German bankers) If Greece did not meet the financial requirements, it is because of fraud carried out by Greece itself, without the EU's knowledge[1]. Greece abusing its position in the Eurozone to leverage itself into an unsustainable economic position is not something you need to be ashamed of, no matter the nationality of the bankers who were Greece's creditors. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece#Eurozone_entry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece#Eurozone_ent...

zx85wes 4y ago
Not fair really to blame Greece. Everyone knew the euro was going to cause huge problems. Romano Prodi (president of the European Commission at the time) : 'I am sure the euro will oblige us to introduce a new set of economic policy instruments. It is politically impossible to propose that now. But some day there will be a crisis and new instruments will be created'. They wanted to use the problems they created to force through more centralisation.
- denton-scratch 4y ago
  I'm not blaming Greece. They have been the victims in that story.
denton-scratch 4y ago
> The Council of Ministers only nominates the various members of the Commission That's not right, in practice. Each member government appoints a commissioner. The Council of Ministers is nothing more than an ad-hoc meeting of relevant ministers from member governments, whose membership varies depending on what is being discussed. The parliament always approves all the proposed commissioners. The parliament can dismiss a commissioner, but only by dismissing the entire commission. This has only ever happened once, when it became obvious that most of them were crooks. > fraud carried out by Greece itself, without the EU's knowledge There was "fraud" by Greece; they weren't prepared to balance their budget. But actually everyone knew about it; it wasn't fraud in the sense of covert shenanigans. Government budgets tend to be public information. Germany, in particular, wanted Greece to accede.
tremon 4y ago
especially considering the more proportional voting system used by the EU What do you mean by that, exactly? Because EU votes are only proportional by country; each country is allocated a fixed number of seats based on its population, and each country only votes for its own representation. A UK vote has zero effect on the Hungarian MEP distribution.
- dane-pgp 4y ago
  I meant that the system for electing MEPs (using the D'Hondt and STV methods) was more proportional than FPTP as used in UK general elections. Thus a UK vote in a European election was better reflected in the composition of MEPs elected (and thus the party of the European commission president) than an equivalent UK vote in a general election. Actually, to be clear, I haven't compared the Gallagher index[0] values of UK general elections and UK elections of MEPs, so I accept the possibility that quirks of the two systems and the UK political scene might mean that the real world outcomes don't match the theory. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallagher_index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallagher_index

zx85wes 4y ago

Not fair really to blame Greece. Everyone knew the euro was going to cause huge problems. Romano Prodi (president of the European Commission at the time) : 'I am sure the euro will oblige us to introduce a new set of economic policy instruments. It is politically impossible to propose that now. But some day there will be a crisis and new instruments will be created'. They wanted to use the problems they created to force through more centralisation.

denton-scratch 4y ago
I'm not blaming Greece. They have been the victims in that story.

denton-scratch 4y ago

> The Council of Ministers only nominates the various members of the Commission That's not right, in practice. Each member government appoints a commissioner. The Council of Ministers is nothing more than an ad-hoc meeting of relevant ministers from member governments, whose membership varies depending on what is being discussed. The parliament always approves all the proposed commissioners. The parliament can dismiss a commissioner, but only by dismissing the entire commission. This has only ever happened once, when it became obvious that most of them were crooks. > fraud carried out by Greece itself, without the EU's knowledge There was "fraud" by Greece; they weren't prepared to balance their budget. But actually everyone knew about it; it wasn't fraud in the sense of covert shenanigans. Government budgets tend to be public information. Germany, in particular, wanted Greece to accede.

tremon 4y ago

especially considering the more proportional voting system used by the EU What do you mean by that, exactly? Because EU votes are only proportional by country; each country is allocated a fixed number of seats based on its population, and each country only votes for its own representation. A UK vote has zero effect on the Hungarian MEP distribution.

dane-pgp 4y ago
I meant that the system for electing MEPs (using the D'Hondt and STV methods) was more proportional than FPTP as used in UK general elections. Thus a UK vote in a European election was better reflected in the composition of MEPs elected (and thus the party of the European commission president) than an equivalent UK vote in a general election. Actually, to be clear, I haven't compared the Gallagher index[0] values of UK general elections and UK elections of MEPs, so I accept the possibility that quirks of the two systems and the UK political scene might mean that the real world outcomes don't match the theory. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallagher_index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallagher_index