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> and a bunch of other rules, and not get kicked out, or even sanctioned. So you're saying you voted for Brexit because the EU didn't have enough power to puni

> and a bunch of other rules, and not get kicked out, or even sanctioned. So you're saying you voted for Brexit because the EU didn't have enough power to punish member states? Do you think that these new entrants were the only ones breaking the rules with no consequences?[0] > I don't want to be in a union of governments with authoritarian racists. Leaving the EU doesn't help make Hungary (for example) become any less authoritarian or racist, and it certainly hasn't made Boris Johnson and the Tories any less authoritarian or racist, so you're still in such a union. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/mar/04/uk-has-broken-air-pollution-limits-for-a-decade-eu-court-finds https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/mar/04/uk-has-b...

denton-scratch 4y ago
> the only ones breaking the rules Of course not. Rules get broken all the time. But as the years went by, I came to realise that the EU didn't embody the principles it claimed to stand for (and of which I approved). > Leaving the EU doesn't help make Hungary (for example) become any less authoritarian Moderating the atavistic instincts of other countries isn't a good reason for being in a political union. > Boris Johnson and the Tories I have half a chance of voting them out. It's not possible to vote Hungary and Poland off the EU Commission. The fact is, we're out; I voted to leave; I'm not regretful. I knew there would be consequences. They've not been as severe as I expected (yet). I generally avoid debating Brexit with people; it's done and dusted. When it was still a live debate it was VERY divisive, because EU membership embraces so many aspects of life and politics. It's almost impossible to win (or lose) a Brexit debate. But I'm not ashamed of my decision, so I'm prepared to stand up and defend it. I think a renewed Brexit debate would be off-topic here, though. FTR, I have nothing against Poles or Hungarians. Their governments have never been aligned with what I thought were the EU principles, though. Greece acceded despite not meeting the financial requirements for membership; it was then financially crushed by Germany (more specifically, German bankers). That did cause me shame.
- dane-pgp 4y ago
  Thank you for your honest answers. For what it's worth, I don't think you're a bad person for voting the way you did. > the EU didn't embody the principles it claimed to stand for (and of which I approved). But is it possible that you were holding it to a higher standard than you hold your own country to? > Moderating the atavistic instincts of other countries isn't a good reason for being in a political union. Turning that around, though: reducing the moderation on those atavistic instincts is not a good way to further the principles you claim to support. In any case, there are other, more positive, reasons to be an international trade and peace agreement than just a duty to look out for your neighbours. > I have half a chance of voting them out. It's not possible to vote Hungary and Poland off the EU Commission. But the problem isn't the nationality of the commissioners, because you're not a racist, right? The Council of Ministers only nominates the various members of the Commission, in agreement with the nominated President, and the 27 members as a team are then subject to a vote of approval by the European Parliament.[0] So you had more chance of voting out an atavistic Hungarian or Polish commissioner (through your MEP, and President) than you had of determining the composition of Boris Johnson's cabinet (especially considering the more proportional voting system used by the EU). > Greece acceded despite not meeting the financial requirements for membership; it was then financially crushed by Germany (more specifically, German bankers) If Greece did not meet the financial requirements, it is because of fraud carried out by Greece itself, without the EU's knowledge[1]. Greece abusing its position in the Eurozone to leverage itself into an unsustainable economic position is not something you need to be ashamed of, no matter the nationality of the bankers who were Greece's creditors. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece#Eurozone_entry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece#Eurozone_ent...
  - zx85wes 4y ago
    Not fair really to blame Greece. Everyone knew the euro was going to cause huge problems. Romano Prodi (president of the European Commission at the time) : 'I am sure the euro will oblige us to introduce a new set of economic policy instruments. It is politically impossible to propose that now. But some day there will be a crisis and new instruments will be created'. They wanted to use the problems they created to force through more centralisation.

denton-scratch 4y ago

> the only ones breaking the rules Of course not. Rules get broken all the time. But as the years went by, I came to realise that the EU didn't embody the principles it claimed to stand for (and of which I approved). > Leaving the EU doesn't help make Hungary (for example) become any less authoritarian Moderating the atavistic instincts of other countries isn't a good reason for being in a political union. > Boris Johnson and the Tories I have half a chance of voting them out. It's not possible to vote Hungary and Poland off the EU Commission. The fact is, we're out; I voted to leave; I'm not regretful. I knew there would be consequences. They've not been as severe as I expected (yet). I generally avoid debating Brexit with people; it's done and dusted. When it was still a live debate it was VERY divisive, because EU membership embraces so many aspects of life and politics. It's almost impossible to win (or lose) a Brexit debate. But I'm not ashamed of my decision, so I'm prepared to stand up and defend it. I think a renewed Brexit debate would be off-topic here, though. FTR, I have nothing against Poles or Hungarians. Their governments have never been aligned with what I thought were the EU principles, though. Greece acceded despite not meeting the financial requirements for membership; it was then financially crushed by Germany (more specifically, German bankers). That did cause me shame.

dane-pgp 4y ago
Thank you for your honest answers. For what it's worth, I don't think you're a bad person for voting the way you did. > the EU didn't embody the principles it claimed to stand for (and of which I approved). But is it possible that you were holding it to a higher standard than you hold your own country to? > Moderating the atavistic instincts of other countries isn't a good reason for being in a political union. Turning that around, though: reducing the moderation on those atavistic instincts is not a good way to further the principles you claim to support. In any case, there are other, more positive, reasons to be an international trade and peace agreement than just a duty to look out for your neighbours. > I have half a chance of voting them out. It's not possible to vote Hungary and Poland off the EU Commission. But the problem isn't the nationality of the commissioners, because you're not a racist, right? The Council of Ministers only nominates the various members of the Commission, in agreement with the nominated President, and the 27 members as a team are then subject to a vote of approval by the European Parliament.[0] So you had more chance of voting out an atavistic Hungarian or Polish commissioner (through your MEP, and President) than you had of determining the composition of Boris Johnson's cabinet (especially considering the more proportional voting system used by the EU). > Greece acceded despite not meeting the financial requirements for membership; it was then financially crushed by Germany (more specifically, German bankers) If Greece did not meet the financial requirements, it is because of fraud carried out by Greece itself, without the EU's knowledge[1]. Greece abusing its position in the Eurozone to leverage itself into an unsustainable economic position is not something you need to be ashamed of, no matter the nationality of the bankers who were Greece's creditors. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece#Eurozone_entry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece#Eurozone_ent...
- zx85wes 4y ago
  Not fair really to blame Greece. Everyone knew the euro was going to cause huge problems. Romano Prodi (president of the European Commission at the time) : 'I am sure the euro will oblige us to introduce a new set of economic policy instruments. It is politically impossible to propose that now. But some day there will be a crisis and new instruments will be created'. They wanted to use the problems they created to force through more centralisation.