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I can't tell if this a "both sides" butwhataboutism or not. But there's enough of that and enough people who will mistake my statements as "Republicans bad, Dem

by jmyeet 5y ago

I can't tell if this a "both sides" butwhataboutism or not. But there's enough of that and enough people who will mistake my statements as "Republicans bad, Democrats good" that I'll address that even if that's not your point. A better way to reduce my position is "Republicans bad, Democrats slightly less bad". Or, perhaps more accurately, "Republicans bad but effective, Democrats slightly less bad but completley ineffective." That all goes to my point: the Democrats as they exist in modern US politics are completely feckless. They are way more concerned with fundraising, the aesthetics of appearing to do something and doing everything they can to stamp out any remotely progressive or socialist element of the party. There's no better example of this than the concerted effort to coronate the only candidate in 2016 who could get Trump elected over an actual progressive. Obama, who I personally like as a person and a statesman, was a pretty ineffective president. Obama the candidate was progressive. Obama the president was just another Democratic right centrist who reneged on many campaign promises (eg codifying Roe v. Wade). And Bill Clinton was the architect of mass incarceration of Americans (particularly minorities) with the 1994 Crime Bill (which our current president was one of the primary architects of). The 1994 Crime Bill was an abomination. But you see, all of that makes my point: there is no Left in America. That's why I find things like Elon Musk's tweet so ridiculous and why I dismiss any notion that both sides are now more extreme. They're not. The political spectrum as a whole has shifted right. That's why "both sides" is both a logical fallacy in general and quite ridiculous in this case in particular.

throwawaylinux 5y ago
"whataboutism" - hah give me a break, you brought up historical change and previous presidents to contrast how things have changed! Now it's whataboutism to do the same thing because you don't like the point. And it was satire! Not surprised it's difficult to recognize but clearly it's spectacularly idiotic to actually call a black person a white supremacist. No, if I was going to criticize Obama for something unironically it would obviously be his rampant corruption and nepotism, warmongering, foreign interventions, and many failures in Eastern Ukraine and the South China Sea, underestimation of and troubling relationship with Putin, etc. And I hear a lot of claims without evidence that "there is no left" or that one party is less worse than the other. I'm not convinced by either. The former is just pointless arguing of semantics when the intention is normally pretty clear, and the latter is clearly highly subjective.
smsm42 5y ago
> A better way to reduce my position is "Republicans bad, Democrats slightly less bad" And you think this makes it better? It doesn't. The fact that you are on the left to most Democrats does not mean your political opinion is fact. It just means it's your opinion - which you are totally entitled to, just if you try to remember disagreeing with it doesn't make a person a *ist Nazi. If you hold to that, what you'd do is preclude any possibility of a rational discussion with you.
- jmyeet 5y ago
  Disagreeing with me doesn't make you a Nazi. In the case of Tucker Carlson (whom I was referring to), spreading Nazi propaganda (eg [1]) is what makes him a Nazi. I don't mean he's a Nazi as a perjorative. I mean, quite litearlly, he's a Nazi. The Third Reich had cultural Bolshevism [2]. Now we have other popular figures like Jordan Peterson arguing "cultural Marxism" [3]. It's completely different I'm sure. If you suffer through Tucker's screed, he basically argues that black people are inherently violent. black people are inferior to real (ie white) people and that they're being manipulaated and used by George Soros against "real Americans". Replace "George Soros" with "the Jew" and you have an almost word-for-word translation of Nazi Germany propaganda. Highest rated show on the highest rated "news" network by the way. This isn't hyperbole. The normalization of Nazi views and fascism is terrifying and real. It's this same propaganda that has convinced people that there even is an extreme left in US politics. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGb748VOcYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGb748VOcYU [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Bolshevism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Bolshevism [3]: https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/04/jordan-peterson-capitalism-postmodernism-ideology https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/04/jordan-peterson-capitalis...
  - daniel-cussen 5y ago
    > Replace "George Soros" with "the Jew" Replace the entire thing Tucker Carlson said with the entire text of Mein Kampf and you have the entire text of Mein Kampf. He is accusing George Soros, a specific unique Jew. Arguing that is an attack on all Jews? Or the Sacklers, for that matter. Three specific Jews who committed genocide against various ethnic groups with genetic commonalities in opioid response, genocide against 2D6 variants, genocide of that gene. And in that specific instance, if you tell me it would be anti-semitic to attack the Sacklers, dude I don't care. When you say a specific powerful Jew represents all Jews, it's literally saying he's their savior or king, Messiah, or their GOD. I highly doubt good Jews like you taking them hostage like that. I prove I'm pro-semitic with my actions and words and friendship and solidarity but like I talked about before, I'm not going to cooperate with threats of accusations of being a bigot. It's not worthwhile, too easy to carry out, total impunity. And further speak for yourself, you don't speak on behalf of others, if others consider me to be very much the opposite of a bigot, whereas you in fact would qualify, don't say you speak for them. You are no messiah. No respect for those accusations, no fucking respect for torture either.[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31321358 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31321358 If an accusation against a member of the group is described as an accusation of the entire group, you couldn't denounce anybody for anything because everyone is part of a group and saying the whole group is bad is censored, called offensive. Particularly some groups and not others, like you can say anything you want about white people, absolutely anything, make any generalization, say they're all racist and therefore deserve are racially inferior[1]. But then you accuse one member of another group of any crime? Well that gets tricky because there's bigotry from all groups against all groups, but uh...the press kills those stories. The movement is in practice trying to censor everything white people have to say. Silence whites. And frankly the one calling "George Soros" "the Jew" is you, you wrote those words for the first time. You're the inventor of that piece of bigotry. A Nazi might put your comment as a source in his bibliography, then your words would be word-for-word inside a future Nazi book. [1] In fact the progressive movement right now considers racial inferiority to only be attainable through racism. Everything else, any deformity or genetic abnormality, no need for treatment ever, six fingers whatever, they don't talk about deformities even if they were presented by every member of a group. No need for treatment to root that gene out, even if it's medically desirable, the group in question wants to do it and has the money, they hate that they object to that. The real inferior deformity, which deserves to be treated with scorn and hatred, is anything they can accuse of racism. [2] Hey at least in Room 101, in which I would spend what according to the Gregorian Calendar was a lunar month, I have a roof over my head. I have four walls that prevent everyone except my formally accredited doctor, his assistant...like in 1984 there was a guy in a lab coat preparing the injections, that guy. I remember exactly nothing but there were three people normally. There were the orderlies, who you normally never see, the guys strapping you down, coercing you physically. All accredited professionals. And there's the beautiful toys, the video games, the time machine, the place in which I lay or sit, the straps, maybe sensors to impress me with numbers quantifying the suffering inflicted like I'm going to say "oh 35 that's a big number, hope it doesn't go up to 300 because pain is linear", the syringes with the recreational drugs I suppose were good shit. Them touching me on the hand, bedside manner, telling me I'm mad and they're going to cure me exactly like in 1984. Them like reading 1984 out loud to me to delete it all. That's a book about a madman being cured by a psychiatrist, in the psychiatrist's own words, O'Brien/Barros literally claims to be curing the man he calls a madman, Cussen/Smith, of insanity. It's a book about medicine. It's a medical textbook. The peak of Oceania technology, where all that research money really goes. Same stuff they use to drill into the men at Guantanamo. And it's stupid shit, if you look behind the curtain it's really dumb manipulative shit. But I have a home during that entire time. Just as Jesus on the Cross, during crucifixion, had a place to himself that nobody could evict him from. Nobody told him get off the cross and fuck off, ripped him off the nails creating orifices out of the stigmata, stole his crown of the true King covering his beautiful face with blood, told him he didn't add up to shit and wasn't the real deal, didn't deserve a shot at martyrdom. Like, you haven't paid rent for your sacrifice or we just want to kick you off. We can't let you fulfill and become the first guy to stick up to torture. At least if I'm being tortured somebody gives a shit about me enough to torture me, because it's extremely expensive, requires a lot of staff and a support team, somebody has to pay for all of that. They're ganging up on the torture victim (or victor, if he doesn't succumb) and it's just much less impressive when you see it for the incredibly pathetic act of cowardice it is. In 1984, it looks like it's just O'Brien dominating Smith, but read it closely several times and the Ministry of Love is a hugely expensive operation. Anybody can act like they're invincible with that amount of people ganging up on "the minority of one." But somebody cares, on the street nobody cares. Eviction I respect, torture I just don't.

by jmyeet 5y ago

throwawaylinux 5y ago

"whataboutism" - hah give me a break, you brought up historical change and previous presidents to contrast how things have changed! Now it's whataboutism to do the same thing because you don't like the point. And it was satire! Not surprised it's difficult to recognize but clearly it's spectacularly idiotic to actually call a black person a white supremacist. No, if I was going to criticize Obama for something unironically it would obviously be his rampant corruption and nepotism, warmongering, foreign interventions, and many failures in Eastern Ukraine and the South China Sea, underestimation of and troubling relationship with Putin, etc. And I hear a lot of claims without evidence that "there is no left" or that one party is less worse than the other. I'm not convinced by either. The former is just pointless arguing of semantics when the intention is normally pretty clear, and the latter is clearly highly subjective.

smsm42 5y ago

> A better way to reduce my position is "Republicans bad, Democrats slightly less bad" And you think this makes it better? It doesn't. The fact that you are on the left to most Democrats does not mean your political opinion is fact. It just means it's your opinion - which you are totally entitled to, just if you try to remember disagreeing with it doesn't make a person a *ist Nazi. If you hold to that, what you'd do is preclude any possibility of a rational discussion with you.

jmyeet 5y ago
Disagreeing with me doesn't make you a Nazi. In the case of Tucker Carlson (whom I was referring to), spreading Nazi propaganda (eg [1]) is what makes him a Nazi. I don't mean he's a Nazi as a perjorative. I mean, quite litearlly, he's a Nazi. The Third Reich had cultural Bolshevism [2]. Now we have other popular figures like Jordan Peterson arguing "cultural Marxism" [3]. It's completely different I'm sure. If you suffer through Tucker's screed, he basically argues that black people are inherently violent. black people are inferior to real (ie white) people and that they're being manipulaated and used by George Soros against "real Americans". Replace "George Soros" with "the Jew" and you have an almost word-for-word translation of Nazi Germany propaganda. Highest rated show on the highest rated "news" network by the way. This isn't hyperbole. The normalization of Nazi views and fascism is terrifying and real. It's this same propaganda that has convinced people that there even is an extreme left in US politics. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGb748VOcYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGb748VOcYU [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Bolshevism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Bolshevism [3]: https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/04/jordan-peterson-capitalism-postmodernism-ideology https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/04/jordan-peterson-capitalis...
- daniel-cussen 5y ago
  > Replace "George Soros" with "the Jew" Replace the entire thing Tucker Carlson said with the entire text of Mein Kampf and you have the entire text of Mein Kampf. He is accusing George Soros, a specific unique Jew. Arguing that is an attack on all Jews? Or the Sacklers, for that matter. Three specific Jews who committed genocide against various ethnic groups with genetic commonalities in opioid response, genocide against 2D6 variants, genocide of that gene. And in that specific instance, if you tell me it would be anti-semitic to attack the Sacklers, dude I don't care. When you say a specific powerful Jew represents all Jews, it's literally saying he's their savior or king, Messiah, or their GOD. I highly doubt good Jews like you taking them hostage like that. I prove I'm pro-semitic with my actions and words and friendship and solidarity but like I talked about before, I'm not going to cooperate with threats of accusations of being a bigot. It's not worthwhile, too easy to carry out, total impunity. And further speak for yourself, you don't speak on behalf of others, if others consider me to be very much the opposite of a bigot, whereas you in fact would qualify, don't say you speak for them. You are no messiah. No respect for those accusations, no fucking respect for torture either.[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31321358 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31321358 If an accusation against a member of the group is described as an accusation of the entire group, you couldn't denounce anybody for anything because everyone is part of a group and saying the whole group is bad is censored, called offensive. Particularly some groups and not others, like you can say anything you want about white people, absolutely anything, make any generalization, say they're all racist and therefore deserve are racially inferior[1]. But then you accuse one member of another group of any crime? Well that gets tricky because there's bigotry from all groups against all groups, but uh...the press kills those stories. The movement is in practice trying to censor everything white people have to say. Silence whites. And frankly the one calling "George Soros" "the Jew" is you, you wrote those words for the first time. You're the inventor of that piece of bigotry. A Nazi might put your comment as a source in his bibliography, then your words would be word-for-word inside a future Nazi book. [1] In fact the progressive movement right now considers racial inferiority to only be attainable through racism. Everything else, any deformity or genetic abnormality, no need for treatment ever, six fingers whatever, they don't talk about deformities even if they were presented by every member of a group. No need for treatment to root that gene out, even if it's medically desirable, the group in question wants to do it and has the money, they hate that they object to that. The real inferior deformity, which deserves to be treated with scorn and hatred, is anything they can accuse of racism. [2] Hey at least in Room 101, in which I would spend what according to the Gregorian Calendar was a lunar month, I have a roof over my head. I have four walls that prevent everyone except my formally accredited doctor, his assistant...like in 1984 there was a guy in a lab coat preparing the injections, that guy. I remember exactly nothing but there were three people normally. There were the orderlies, who you normally never see, the guys strapping you down, coercing you physically. All accredited professionals. And there's the beautiful toys, the video games, the time machine, the place in which I lay or sit, the straps, maybe sensors to impress me with numbers quantifying the suffering inflicted like I'm going to say "oh 35 that's a big number, hope it doesn't go up to 300 because pain is linear", the syringes with the recreational drugs I suppose were good shit. Them touching me on the hand, bedside manner, telling me I'm mad and they're going to cure me exactly like in 1984. Them like reading 1984 out loud to me to delete it all. That's a book about a madman being cured by a psychiatrist, in the psychiatrist's own words, O'Brien/Barros literally claims to be curing the man he calls a madman, Cussen/Smith, of insanity. It's a book about medicine. It's a medical textbook. The peak of Oceania technology, where all that research money really goes. Same stuff they use to drill into the men at Guantanamo. And it's stupid shit, if you look behind the curtain it's really dumb manipulative shit. But I have a home during that entire time. Just as Jesus on the Cross, during crucifixion, had a place to himself that nobody could evict him from. Nobody told him get off the cross and fuck off, ripped him off the nails creating orifices out of the stigmata, stole his crown of the true King covering his beautiful face with blood, told him he didn't add up to shit and wasn't the real deal, didn't deserve a shot at martyrdom. Like, you haven't paid rent for your sacrifice or we just want to kick you off. We can't let you fulfill and become the first guy to stick up to torture. At least if I'm being tortured somebody gives a shit about me enough to torture me, because it's extremely expensive, requires a lot of staff and a support team, somebody has to pay for all of that. They're ganging up on the torture victim (or victor, if he doesn't succumb) and it's just much less impressive when you see it for the incredibly pathetic act of cowardice it is. In 1984, it looks like it's just O'Brien dominating Smith, but read it closely several times and the Ministry of Love is a hugely expensive operation. Anybody can act like they're invincible with that amount of people ganging up on "the minority of one." But somebody cares, on the street nobody cares. Eviction I respect, torture I just don't.