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Isn't the problem that anyone making such a device would have to deal with an endless stream of returns from customers who assumed they could just plug anything

Isn't the problem that anyone making such a device would have to deal with an endless stream of returns from customers who assumed they could just plug anything with the right form factor in only to discover that no, the bargain hub won't handle Thunderbolt, or 100W PD, or...

jedberg 4y ago
Maybe! I know better and read the specs, but you're right, a lot of people might get confused that it isn't charging their 100W laptop.
- EamonnMR 4y ago
  We've trained people for decades that if it fits it should work. Now we've got a multitude of effectively different protocols all using the same connector shape.
  - _carbyau_ 4y ago
    I learnt "fits but won't work" running 5v(worked for the 486DX2) through a 3.3v CPU(DX4 100). The nymphs decided it was too hot and left. Since then, building your own PC has gotten easier and easier. As you say, mostly if it fits it works. Which I think is great! But how did plugging stuff in from the outside go the other way...
    - EamonnMR 4y ago
      Building a PC should be expected to require a certain level of RTFM that I don't you can responsibly expect from people just trying to charge their phone or plug in peripherals.
    - monocasa 4y ago
      I think we're talking more about end user external connections. I'm sure I don't have to tell you that back in the day a bajillion things ran through a DB-9s and DB-25s in electrically incompatible ways and how much easier it got to tech support our families with USB 1 and 2.
      - _carbyau_ 4y ago
        I absolutely agree with you that USB 1 and 2 did great things for family IT support. But now we're at the USB 3 (and seemingly 4) stage of things - hence my "plugging stuff in from the outside go the other way..." statement. Between varying capabilities offered through USB 3 and cables/hubs/docks that support those varying capabilities it is a bit hit and miss whether plugging stuff in will work or not. I now know (not yet personally verified, from other comments on this article) Lightning 4 branded cables should support all connectivity possibilities and power delivery. It doesn't solve patchy device support but at least it is one step better. Connect two USB3 devices with a Lightning 4 cable is a bit silly marketing wise but at least it is easy to support.
      - InvaderFizz 4y ago
        On the very plus side, with ATX, you can't plug in the motherboard power incorrectly, unlike AT.
        orthoxerox 4y ago
        Depends on how strong you are.
        xiwenc 4y ago
        Or smart
my123 4y ago
And display outputs too. What happens if the user plugs in multiple displays to the hub could be an important scenario to support... (and for example, macOS doesn't support DisplayPort MST, requiring an encapsulation over Thunderbolt to support that scenario...) tldr: it'd be possible to make such a hub, but it's so complexity fraught that a _lot_ of companies would avoid doing it, USB Type-C is just too complex.
makeitdouble 4y ago
This was the story moving from USB 1 to 2, and this is still the story for people trying to charge their laptop (USB-A to C cable) from a random phone charger or an underpowered USB-A hub. Coupled with the nightmare of guessing which USB-C cable supports what, I have the feeling preventing us from further confusion has never been a decisive factor in product making.
CoastalCoder 4y ago
I have a fantasy where everyone who worked on recent USB standards must personally provide tech support when there's a problem.
- jrockway 4y ago
  They probably do. It's an industry-driven standard; they added all that stuff exactly because they intended to sell it to consumers.
  - taneq 4y ago
    “We could sell this feature to consumers even though it would confuse them”? That’s not what tech support would do.
  - ajmurmann 4y ago
    But the people who worked on the standard directly aren't doing the tech support
    - eru 4y ago
      How is that different from any other technical standard or product design?
      - denkmoon 4y ago
        It behooves one to read the conversation before replying. The implication is this: perhaps if the people who wrote the spec personally had to offer tech support for the spec they wrote, they might have an incentive to write less insane specs.
        eru 4y ago
        I get that. But spec writers never have to do that, yet there are many other specs that are presumably less insane. So it's unlikely that not-requiring tech support is a causal factor in USB's supposed insanity.
vladvasiliu 4y ago
But isn't that already the case with the ports directly on computers? I have a laptop that can do USB 3.2 (or something). I can charge it through those ports, but it doesn't do Thunderbolt of any kind. I have a small desktop in front of me that's power through an external adaptor, like a laptop. It has a USB-C port that doesn't do video output of any kind and which can't be used to power the computer. It has another USB-C port with a bolt on top of it. It does thunderbolt, it can output video (I've driven an Apple TB display with it), but still can't be powered through it. It also doesn't output video through the USB-C dock, which works on the laptop. I have another laptop with a USB-C port with the bolt on it, and it can be powered through that port. These are all ports directly on the computer, no hubs required.

jedberg 4y ago

Maybe! I know better and read the specs, but you're right, a lot of people might get confused that it isn't charging their 100W laptop.

EamonnMR 4y ago
We've trained people for decades that if it fits it should work. Now we've got a multitude of effectively different protocols all using the same connector shape.
- _carbyau_ 4y ago
  I learnt "fits but won't work" running 5v(worked for the 486DX2) through a 3.3v CPU(DX4 100). The nymphs decided it was too hot and left. Since then, building your own PC has gotten easier and easier. As you say, mostly if it fits it works. Which I think is great! But how did plugging stuff in from the outside go the other way...
  - EamonnMR 4y ago
    Building a PC should be expected to require a certain level of RTFM that I don't you can responsibly expect from people just trying to charge their phone or plug in peripherals.
  - monocasa 4y ago
    I think we're talking more about end user external connections. I'm sure I don't have to tell you that back in the day a bajillion things ran through a DB-9s and DB-25s in electrically incompatible ways and how much easier it got to tech support our families with USB 1 and 2.
    - _carbyau_ 4y ago
      I absolutely agree with you that USB 1 and 2 did great things for family IT support. But now we're at the USB 3 (and seemingly 4) stage of things - hence my "plugging stuff in from the outside go the other way..." statement. Between varying capabilities offered through USB 3 and cables/hubs/docks that support those varying capabilities it is a bit hit and miss whether plugging stuff in will work or not. I now know (not yet personally verified, from other comments on this article) Lightning 4 branded cables should support all connectivity possibilities and power delivery. It doesn't solve patchy device support but at least it is one step better. Connect two USB3 devices with a Lightning 4 cable is a bit silly marketing wise but at least it is easy to support.
    - InvaderFizz 4y ago
      On the very plus side, with ATX, you can't plug in the motherboard power incorrectly, unlike AT.
      - orthoxerox 4y ago
        Depends on how strong you are.
        xiwenc 4y ago
        Or smart

my123 4y ago

And display outputs too. What happens if the user plugs in multiple displays to the hub could be an important scenario to support... (and for example, macOS doesn't support DisplayPort MST, requiring an encapsulation over Thunderbolt to support that scenario...) tldr: it'd be possible to make such a hub, but it's so complexity fraught that a _lot_ of companies would avoid doing it, USB Type-C is just too complex.

makeitdouble 4y ago

This was the story moving from USB 1 to 2, and this is still the story for people trying to charge their laptop (USB-A to C cable) from a random phone charger or an underpowered USB-A hub. Coupled with the nightmare of guessing which USB-C cable supports what, I have the feeling preventing us from further confusion has never been a decisive factor in product making.

CoastalCoder 4y ago

I have a fantasy where everyone who worked on recent USB standards must personally provide tech support when there's a problem.

jrockway 4y ago
They probably do. It's an industry-driven standard; they added all that stuff exactly because they intended to sell it to consumers.
- taneq 4y ago
  “We could sell this feature to consumers even though it would confuse them”? That’s not what tech support would do.
- ajmurmann 4y ago
  But the people who worked on the standard directly aren't doing the tech support
  - eru 4y ago
    How is that different from any other technical standard or product design?
    - denkmoon 4y ago
      It behooves one to read the conversation before replying. The implication is this: perhaps if the people who wrote the spec personally had to offer tech support for the spec they wrote, they might have an incentive to write less insane specs.
      - eru 4y ago
        I get that. But spec writers never have to do that, yet there are many other specs that are presumably less insane. So it's unlikely that not-requiring tech support is a causal factor in USB's supposed insanity.

vladvasiliu 4y ago

But isn't that already the case with the ports directly on computers? I have a laptop that can do USB 3.2 (or something). I can charge it through those ports, but it doesn't do Thunderbolt of any kind. I have a small desktop in front of me that's power through an external adaptor, like a laptop. It has a USB-C port that doesn't do video output of any kind and which can't be used to power the computer. It has another USB-C port with a bolt on top of it. It does thunderbolt, it can output video (I've driven an Apple TB display with it), but still can't be powered through it. It also doesn't output video through the USB-C dock, which works on the laptop. I have another laptop with a USB-C port with the bolt on it, and it can be powered through that port. These are all ports directly on the computer, no hubs required.