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Weirdly enough I don't see anything the ACLU is doing in the article that's particularly left or even progressive, just barely Democrat. My guess is there's 100

Weirdly enough I don't see anything the ACLU is doing in the article that's particularly left or even progressive, just barely Democrat. My guess is there's 100x as much money available to an org fighting for a particular party's most important items at a given moment vs actually looking for free speech violations.

randbox 4y ago
Yes, the level-headed take is that an organization has not taken a "hard-left turn" unless they are calling for redistributing the land and cancelling the debt.
- crmd 4y ago
  They are based in the United States of America which is a relatively conservative country.
  - AlchemistCamp 4y ago
    Unless your baseline is "Nordic countries" or similar, the US is pretty far to the left. This is true regardless of whether you look at the size of the government, relative to the economy or where it sits on the spectrum between ethno-nationalist vs self-criticism/openness to outsiders. The US has a much larger than average sized government spending vs the size of its economy and it takes in three times more immigrants per year than any other country. By comparison, China, Japan, India and other major world powers are considerably further to the right. Even influential small countries such as Israel and Singapore are also a bit more conservative. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_government_spending_as_percentage_of_GDP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_governmen... https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/immigration-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/immigrati...
    - spupe 4y ago
      > Unless your baseline is "Nordic countries" or similar, the US is pretty far to the left. How about most of Europe and Latin America? It is hard to define what "left" means nowadays but it is telling that you believe the "size of the government", as defined by mostly military spending, can consist as a checkbox for being part of the left.
      - AlchemistCamp 4y ago
        >it is telling that you believe the "size of the government", as defined by mostly military spending Be honest here. None of the budgets of any governments mentioned are "defined by mostly military spending".
        spupe 4y ago
        I am not arguing about the other governments you mentioned, I am arguing that it is simply incorrect to use "size of government" as a measure of how "left" a country is, particularly when using the US as an example. The US is notorious for having very bad safety nets while disproportionately investing in military, both of which are hardly causes favoured by the left.
        AlchemistCamp 4y ago
        Military spending in the US is dwarfed by entitlements spending. Even then, much of that military spending has been going towards the defense of allies that underinvest in their own defense.
    - ohashi 4y ago
      Not sure where the claim about taking immigrants is coming from, according to the OECD: https://stats.oecd.org/viewhtml.aspx?datasetcode=MIG&lang=en https://stats.oecd.org/viewhtml.aspx?datasetcode=MIG&lang=en Germany takes more and this is raw numbers not adjusted by the size of the country. Germany is less than a third the size of the US and taking more. Spain takes 60% as many immigrants as the US and is roughly 1/7 the population.
      - AlchemistCamp 4y ago
        > Not sure where the claim about taking immigrants is coming from The link was right at the bottom of the comment and if you click it, you'll see data sources mentioned prominently. As of 2020, the US has 50.6 million foreign born immigrants, while Germany, which was #2, had 15.8 million. Adjusted for current population it's fairly close. The UK, in contrast had 9.4M, and Spain 6.8M. All of these countries have immigrant populations compared to world averages. You could nitpick at time frames or various other ways to slice the data but there's no defensible claim that the US accepts fewer immigrants than most countries.
cjsplat 4y ago
The ACLU on Northern California is the #3 donor (over $300k) for the effort to reject the recall of the progressive DA in SF. (sfethics.org list of actual donors, not guesswork). Regardless of one's position on the recall, it seems an odd thing for the N. Cal ACLU to be putting over 5% of it's operating budget into this campaign.
- hedora 4y ago
  I guess it depends on what stances the DA has on civil liberties issues (vs their likely replacements).
  - cjsplat 4y ago
    Or perhaps whether the ACLU ever expects to bring a case against the City and County of SF. You know - perhaps like protests vs the City, or on public streets near the Federal Court.
  - lazide 4y ago
    The SF DA refuses to prosecute pretty much any crime. Seriously.
galangalalgol 4y ago
- l33t2328 4y ago
  It’s not the American Libertarian Anarchist Union
  - galangalalgol 4y ago
    That is a really cool name. My hyperbole was to point out that they are picking and choosing which "civil liberties" are valid, independent of law and judicial precedent. They totally have that right, but their positions do align with the US moderate left on most issues, including firearms.
- hedora 4y ago
  They have an odd interpretation of it: https://www.aclu.org/other/second-amendment https://www.aclu.org/other/second-amendment and don't seem to support the right to own a gun.
  - goodoldneon 4y ago
    The 2nd Amendment isn’t as cut and dry “minimal gun restrictions” like some organizations want you to believe. I think the ACLU’s interpretation is defensible
    - hattmall 4y ago
      Except they don't defend it. If they did they would be advocating against standing armies. If it's believed to be a collective right to promote the common defense then the scale of the US Military is a major affront to that. But realistically we are so far removed from what the founders envisioned we we should do a total redraft.
      - goodoldneon 4y ago
paisawalla 4y ago
One of their most visible (on Twitter) attorneys is a transgender person who openly called for "stopping the circulation" of a book discussing critically the transgender phenomenon [0]. This is the same org that once fought for a neo-Nazi organization's right to hold a march. From "I may not agree with your opinion, but I'll defend your right to say it," to "we must prevent opposing views from being heard" in under a decade. 0: https://www.iwf.org/2020/11/16/some-in-aclu-have-new-cause-book-banning/ https://www.iwf.org/2020/11/16/some-in-aclu-have-new-cause-b...
- verall 4y ago
  "$AUTHOR has actual courage" - Ben Shapiro - the back of that book Something something paradox of tolerance
  - Siira 4y ago
    Paradox of tolerance is A) not obviously true, B) only applies to extreme acts, otherwise you have zero tolerance.

randbox 4y ago

Yes, the level-headed take is that an organization has not taken a "hard-left turn" unless they are calling for redistributing the land and cancelling the debt.

crmd 4y ago
They are based in the United States of America which is a relatively conservative country.
- AlchemistCamp 4y ago
  Unless your baseline is "Nordic countries" or similar, the US is pretty far to the left. This is true regardless of whether you look at the size of the government, relative to the economy or where it sits on the spectrum between ethno-nationalist vs self-criticism/openness to outsiders. The US has a much larger than average sized government spending vs the size of its economy and it takes in three times more immigrants per year than any other country. By comparison, China, Japan, India and other major world powers are considerably further to the right. Even influential small countries such as Israel and Singapore are also a bit more conservative. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_government_spending_as_percentage_of_GDP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_governmen... https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/immigration-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/immigrati...
  - spupe 4y ago
    > Unless your baseline is "Nordic countries" or similar, the US is pretty far to the left. How about most of Europe and Latin America? It is hard to define what "left" means nowadays but it is telling that you believe the "size of the government", as defined by mostly military spending, can consist as a checkbox for being part of the left.
    - AlchemistCamp 4y ago
      >it is telling that you believe the "size of the government", as defined by mostly military spending Be honest here. None of the budgets of any governments mentioned are "defined by mostly military spending".
      - spupe 4y ago
        I am not arguing about the other governments you mentioned, I am arguing that it is simply incorrect to use "size of government" as a measure of how "left" a country is, particularly when using the US as an example. The US is notorious for having very bad safety nets while disproportionately investing in military, both of which are hardly causes favoured by the left.
        AlchemistCamp 4y ago
        Military spending in the US is dwarfed by entitlements spending. Even then, much of that military spending has been going towards the defense of allies that underinvest in their own defense.
  - ohashi 4y ago
    Not sure where the claim about taking immigrants is coming from, according to the OECD: https://stats.oecd.org/viewhtml.aspx?datasetcode=MIG&lang=en https://stats.oecd.org/viewhtml.aspx?datasetcode=MIG&lang=en Germany takes more and this is raw numbers not adjusted by the size of the country. Germany is less than a third the size of the US and taking more. Spain takes 60% as many immigrants as the US and is roughly 1/7 the population.
    - AlchemistCamp 4y ago
      > Not sure where the claim about taking immigrants is coming from The link was right at the bottom of the comment and if you click it, you'll see data sources mentioned prominently. As of 2020, the US has 50.6 million foreign born immigrants, while Germany, which was #2, had 15.8 million. Adjusted for current population it's fairly close. The UK, in contrast had 9.4M, and Spain 6.8M. All of these countries have immigrant populations compared to world averages. You could nitpick at time frames or various other ways to slice the data but there's no defensible claim that the US accepts fewer immigrants than most countries.

cjsplat 4y ago

The ACLU on Northern California is the #3 donor (over $300k) for the effort to reject the recall of the progressive DA in SF. (sfethics.org list of actual donors, not guesswork). Regardless of one's position on the recall, it seems an odd thing for the N. Cal ACLU to be putting over 5% of it's operating budget into this campaign.

hedora 4y ago
I guess it depends on what stances the DA has on civil liberties issues (vs their likely replacements).
- cjsplat 4y ago
  Or perhaps whether the ACLU ever expects to bring a case against the City and County of SF. You know - perhaps like protests vs the City, or on public streets near the Federal Court.
- lazide 4y ago
  The SF DA refuses to prosecute pretty much any crime. Seriously.

galangalalgol 4y ago

l33t2328 4y ago
It’s not the American Libertarian Anarchist Union
- galangalalgol 4y ago
  That is a really cool name. My hyperbole was to point out that they are picking and choosing which "civil liberties" are valid, independent of law and judicial precedent. They totally have that right, but their positions do align with the US moderate left on most issues, including firearms.
hedora 4y ago
They have an odd interpretation of it: https://www.aclu.org/other/second-amendment https://www.aclu.org/other/second-amendment and don't seem to support the right to own a gun.
- goodoldneon 4y ago
  The 2nd Amendment isn’t as cut and dry “minimal gun restrictions” like some organizations want you to believe. I think the ACLU’s interpretation is defensible
  - hattmall 4y ago
    Except they don't defend it. If they did they would be advocating against standing armies. If it's believed to be a collective right to promote the common defense then the scale of the US Military is a major affront to that. But realistically we are so far removed from what the founders envisioned we we should do a total redraft.
    - goodoldneon 4y ago

paisawalla 4y ago

One of their most visible (on Twitter) attorneys is a transgender person who openly called for "stopping the circulation" of a book discussing critically the transgender phenomenon [0]. This is the same org that once fought for a neo-Nazi organization's right to hold a march. From "I may not agree with your opinion, but I'll defend your right to say it," to "we must prevent opposing views from being heard" in under a decade. 0: https://www.iwf.org/2020/11/16/some-in-aclu-have-new-cause-book-banning/ https://www.iwf.org/2020/11/16/some-in-aclu-have-new-cause-b...

verall 4y ago
"$AUTHOR has actual courage" - Ben Shapiro - the back of that book Something something paradox of tolerance
- Siira 4y ago
  Paradox of tolerance is A) not obviously true, B) only applies to extreme acts, otherwise you have zero tolerance.