4 ms·

>What the baker was not willing to do was bake them the exact cake that they wanted, claiming that fancier cakes were artistic expression and not the same as th

by slg 4y ago

>What the baker was not willing to do was bake them the exact cake that they wanted, claiming that fancier cakes were artistic expression and not the same as the standard priced on their menu cakes, and that forcing them to create an art piece cake they didn't want to make was the equivalent of compelled speech This is just semantics of a legal argument. It is not some universal truth that ordering off menu puts any additional ethical strain on someone. If the baker would make those customizations for a straight couple and not a gay couple then the civil rights of the gay couple are being infringed.

a123b456c 4y ago
Honest question: which civil rights were infringed?
- alar44 4y ago
  The right to be a troglodyte, I'm guessing.
  - ROTMetro 4y ago
    And comment is why we need the ACLU in it's old form. Dude, do you not see no one is arguing for being pieces of crap, but that rights can easily be curtailed long term from an initial starting point of everyone agreeing we shouldn't be pieces of crap. You know, the saying 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'.
    - alar44 4y ago
      Discrimination isn't free speech, end of story.
      - ohCh6zos 4y ago
        You're right, it's freedom of association.
      - ROTMetro 4y ago
        No crap. Which is why we are discussing the boundaries of rights in the context of an organization that's purpose is to ensure that those boundaries don't get pushed to the point of infringing on other rights in either direction. In a free society we need someone willing to stand up for the unpopular side. I support gay marriage. I feel like a piece of crap in this discussion because the person I am defending disgusts me and is garbage. But I feel like there is a larger discussion that should be had. If political speech is banned in the 6 months before an election do I have free speech? If I am forced to do work I don't want when I am self employed and affluent enough to choose, do do I have life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?
- RyanCavanaugh 4y ago
  You have a civil right to participate in normal society, such as the purchase of everyday goods and services like cakes. This is what it looks like when that right is not enforced via mandates of business owners: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Motorist_Green_Book https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Motorist_Green_Book
- slg 4y ago
  Not being discriminated against based of their sexual orientation.
ROTMetro 4y ago
Come on man, if I list services, and am willing to provide you those services, how did I deny you service? If I am not willing to go above and beyond to make you special creative accommodations that is not a violation of your rights. If my religion does not allow me to do drugs, and you want me to cover a cake with marijuana flowers instead of the standard roses, I am required to do that? Am I denying you service when I say I will sell you a cake with standard flowers but I'm not spending 16 hours custom making marijuana icing flowers? Putting the standard icing on a cake is a service and should not be denied, but 16 hours making something custom is art and I should have a choice if I want to put that creative energy into what you are asking for. Service was not denied, commissioning a custom work of artistry was. No rights were infringed.
- RyanCavanaugh 4y ago
  You're conflating discrimination on the basis of the product being created vs on the basis of whom the product is being sold to. The cake being commissioned was not materially different from any of the other cakes the baker made. What was materially different was who he was selling it to.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - ROTMetro 4y ago
    I am a computer geek and suck at words, but I thought that is what I said. If you provide a standard service, you can't deny that service to people. If you have something different, say a wedding cake that takes tens of hours and is a one off custom work of art, that is different. I do custom software development. What is the line for what work I am compelled to take on versus what projects I can choose not to do? Would I be required to take on making a grindr clone if my only objections was religious?
    - RyanCavanaugh 4y ago
      You don't have to take bad faith arguments at face value. When the baker says that his wedding cakes are a custom work of art tailored to each client, he's bullshitting you. He simply wants to discriminate against gay people. It really is that simple. There is no material difference between drawing flowers on a cake for a gay wedding and drawing flowers on a cake for a straight wedding, the same as there being no material difference between drawing flowers on a cake for an interracial wedding and a non-interracial wedding. When people make up false pretenses to justify their discrimination, your job as a rational human being is to identify it as such, not be a sucker. I absolutely guarantee that if a straight couple had came in, commissioned a regular wedding cake, and then once the cake was done said "Oops we're not gonna buy it, can you sell it to our gay friends' wedding instead?", the baker would not have sold them the cake at that point, because again, it's about who he's selling it to, not what he's making.

by slg 4y ago

a123b456c 4y ago

Honest question: which civil rights were infringed?

alar44 4y ago
The right to be a troglodyte, I'm guessing.
- ROTMetro 4y ago
  And comment is why we need the ACLU in it's old form. Dude, do you not see no one is arguing for being pieces of crap, but that rights can easily be curtailed long term from an initial starting point of everyone agreeing we shouldn't be pieces of crap. You know, the saying 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'.
  - alar44 4y ago
    Discrimination isn't free speech, end of story.
    - ohCh6zos 4y ago
      You're right, it's freedom of association.
    - ROTMetro 4y ago
      No crap. Which is why we are discussing the boundaries of rights in the context of an organization that's purpose is to ensure that those boundaries don't get pushed to the point of infringing on other rights in either direction. In a free society we need someone willing to stand up for the unpopular side. I support gay marriage. I feel like a piece of crap in this discussion because the person I am defending disgusts me and is garbage. But I feel like there is a larger discussion that should be had. If political speech is banned in the 6 months before an election do I have free speech? If I am forced to do work I don't want when I am self employed and affluent enough to choose, do do I have life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?
RyanCavanaugh 4y ago
You have a civil right to participate in normal society, such as the purchase of everyday goods and services like cakes. This is what it looks like when that right is not enforced via mandates of business owners: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Motorist_Green_Book https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Motorist_Green_Book
slg 4y ago
Not being discriminated against based of their sexual orientation.

ROTMetro 4y ago

Come on man, if I list services, and am willing to provide you those services, how did I deny you service? If I am not willing to go above and beyond to make you special creative accommodations that is not a violation of your rights. If my religion does not allow me to do drugs, and you want me to cover a cake with marijuana flowers instead of the standard roses, I am required to do that? Am I denying you service when I say I will sell you a cake with standard flowers but I'm not spending 16 hours custom making marijuana icing flowers? Putting the standard icing on a cake is a service and should not be denied, but 16 hours making something custom is art and I should have a choice if I want to put that creative energy into what you are asking for. Service was not denied, commissioning a custom work of artistry was. No rights were infringed.

RyanCavanaugh 4y ago
You're conflating discrimination on the basis of the product being created vs on the basis of whom the product is being sold to. The cake being commissioned was not materially different from any of the other cakes the baker made. What was materially different was who he was selling it to.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- ROTMetro 4y ago
  I am a computer geek and suck at words, but I thought that is what I said. If you provide a standard service, you can't deny that service to people. If you have something different, say a wedding cake that takes tens of hours and is a one off custom work of art, that is different. I do custom software development. What is the line for what work I am compelled to take on versus what projects I can choose not to do? Would I be required to take on making a grindr clone if my only objections was religious?
  - RyanCavanaugh 4y ago
    You don't have to take bad faith arguments at face value. When the baker says that his wedding cakes are a custom work of art tailored to each client, he's bullshitting you. He simply wants to discriminate against gay people. It really is that simple. There is no material difference between drawing flowers on a cake for a gay wedding and drawing flowers on a cake for a straight wedding, the same as there being no material difference between drawing flowers on a cake for an interracial wedding and a non-interracial wedding. When people make up false pretenses to justify their discrimination, your job as a rational human being is to identify it as such, not be a sucker. I absolutely guarantee that if a straight couple had came in, commissioned a regular wedding cake, and then once the cake was done said "Oops we're not gonna buy it, can you sell it to our gay friends' wedding instead?", the baker would not have sold them the cake at that point, because again, it's about who he's selling it to, not what he's making.