5 ms·

Red Hat in-vehicle operating system in modern and future vehicles

78 points by ohjeez 4y ago

brian_herman 4y ago
nice this sounds great!
RealityVoid 4y ago
This seems to target the "bigger" cpu's in a car, but there are tens of ECU's that are far smaller and that I think could benefit from a better platform. A much better one than AUTOSAR, which is a nightmare to work with. I swear I don't know what automakers are thinking with pushing AUTOSAR.
- wyldfire 4y ago
  Maybe zephyr [1] is a good option for those ECUs? or hubris [2]? [1] https://docs.zephyrproject.org/latest/introduction/index.html https://docs.zephyrproject.org/latest/introduction/index.htm... [2] https://github.com/oxidecomputer/hubris https://github.com/oxidecomputer/hubris
  - AlotOfReading 4y ago
    Zephyr hasn't finished their certification package, to the best of my knowledge. It was supposed to be finished late last year, but I'm not sure what the current status is. That's typically a bare minimum for RTOS vendor selection, and the turnaround time between selection and deployment is typically 3+ years. Unfortunately still a bit premature right now.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
> Automakers are moving toward providing more personalized and intuitive driving experiences while becoming more embedded within a driver’s personal ecosystem. Doing so creates opportunities for additional revenue streams and improved customer loyalty. The Red Hat In-Vehicle Operating System provides automakers with a common, updatable platform that enables automakers to better meet customer expectations via frequent and seamless feature upgrades and deployment of new applications and services. Honestly, this sounds horrible. This is PR speak for "Red Hat In-Vehicle Operating System will make it easier to serve ads and collect user data that can be sold."
- RealityVoid 4y ago
  How much can this damn' data be worth in order to risk the loyalty of people paying tens of thousands of dollars on your product? I assume the _actual_ profit they are making are in "addons" and extras that can be unlocked remotely.
  - nerdponx 4y ago
    Because there is no loyalty risk. They are betting on a favorable regulatory environment and apathetic consumers for the next several years.
    - chris11 4y ago
      > apathetic consumers All automakers have to do is require access to that data for features, like maps, traffic updates, or entertainment. I hate the idea of in-car advertising, and I don't like the thought my data being sold. But I do give up some privacy for functionality. My biggest annoyance with my car is I don't have Android Auto for the maps, I use google maps when driving, and video from my ADAS is used as training data.
- version_five 4y ago
  Yeah I understand why they market it that way to automakers, but I wish there was a push to show what it could do for the consumer and create demand. I would love to have an open source OS that I could customize in my car. I understand there is stuff that for regulatory reasons can't change, but all the maps and music and whatnot I'd love control over
  - netsharc 4y ago
    Meh, it seems like all infotainment computers get outdated a lot faster than the car, and they don't even have an advantage by being brand new because the manufacturer just slaps on something "the cheapest and slowest computer you can find, and just tolerable enough" to save costs. The car should just offer HDMI input for the display and speakers, and allow the computer to be upgradable. Even the display should be a module (say someone wants to upgrade to 4K OLED...), which makes me think the DIN got it right: https://www.bestcaraudio.com/what-is-a-double-din-car-radio/ https://www.bestcaraudio.com/what-is-a-double-din-car-radio/
StillBored 4y ago
Ok, color me confused, but what does this actually mean? It mentions fedora IoT, via the centos link, which is AFAIK just another Linux distribution (something like coreos, but not coreos?). Where does that fit in a car? Is linux real-time enough, for any of the actual control plane/etc? Is it certifiable? Which leaves what, the entertainment system? What does this provide that a android fork doesn't, longer support lifetimes? It can't actually be Linux can it? I mean RHEL is considered an ancient distro and it only does ~10 years. 10 years old is basically brand new in some car circles, where people are regularly driving 20-30 year old cars. The Linux of 2042 will likely be as unrecognizable as the Linux of 1999 is today, so this has to be something else right? I guess there is a midplane for non driving, non entertainment? AKA the electric windows, door locks, etc? Does that need a full blown heavyweight OS? Confused...
- RealityVoid 4y ago
  Besides the dashboard and the infotainment, more recent ADAS units usually have some sort of POSIX on them. But, yes, most of the systems are RTOS'es.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- soperj 4y ago
  You mention an android fork and complain that RHEL is only supported for 10 years. How long is that fork supported for? Confused...
  - StillBored 4y ago
    If it's an android fork with a 20 year lifetime, then I understand what it is. Is it? edit: I guess another way to put this is, looking at car's I wouldn't expect it to be linux. Maybe something entirely new, designed for real time, safety, and long term support. Maybe with an android style layer bolted on somewhere for the infotainment systems. Being redhat, open source of course. So, we can expect a Fuchsia like code drop at some point? Why not just say that and post it?
ra7 4y ago
Is this an alternative to Android Automotive [1]? [1] https://source.android.com/devices/automotive/start/what_automotive https://source.android.com/devices/automotive/start/what_aut...
- thebeardisred 4y ago
  No, this is related to IEEE/ASME functional safety.
kornhole 4y ago
This seems to be in an exploratory phase with many questions still on how to implement. I do see this as positive in general that big car makers such as GM are recognizing the benefits and willing to partner with IBM on building open source solutions. I recently evaluated several cars for purchase and had real difficulty with all of them because of the mysterious proprietary operating systems that I know are collecting data and sending to somewhere. Cars have become Iphones on wheels which sounds great to some people, but not to me. I ultimately decided not to purchase a new car and stick with an older more analogue one until an open source modern car would be available. I might be waiting a while, but I don't think I am alone in this predicament.
- georgia_peach 4y ago
  Looking at android, the open source data-probe is every bit as effective as the closed-source one. The idea of controlling heavy machinery with red hat seems nearly as inadvisable as controlling it with windows. -- "Computers can do better than ever what needn't be done at all. Making sense is still a human monopoly." - Marshall McLuhan
DoctorOW 4y ago
I feel like if there was a press release about IBM repackaging Linux to sell to manufacturers, the post here would have no positive response, maybe no negative response either. I feel like either apathy or cynicism. This is probably part of the value of the Red Hat purchase.
- redisman 4y ago
  I really don’t understand red hat. Are they just offering good enterprise support or something? I have never heard of anyone choosing Red Hat as their Linux flavor for their servers (or clients) or even in their top 10 flavors
  - LinuxBender 4y ago
    I can only add my anecdotal experience. When the Linux servers are running proprietary code that has a high support cost it would often make sense to have a paid Linux distro as well to avoid finger pointing games. For example, even if I knew what the problem was I could put Redhat and Oracle on the phone together and let them hash it out. They would have to find the root cause and that would be provided to our customers regardless of what they find. I know it sounds weak but that was a good way to shield our business from paying out downtime credits when a vendor had a serious bug and tried to blame us. We had clauses to protect ourselves when we were not negligent. I know this will be an unpopular answer but I know that many large businesses follow this logic when writing their contracts.
  - kbenson 4y ago
    > I have never heard of anyone choosing Red Hat as their Linux flavor for their servers (or clients) or even in their top 10 flavors Do you mean you've never seen someone running CentOS or Rocky? It sounds like that's what you're saying, and if so, that's really surprising.
  - sofixa 4y ago
    Yes. They're "the norm" in some countries and business niches ( e.g. banking, but not Germany, there it'd be SUSE), software only comes packaged and tested for their OSes, etc. For everyone else, there's Debian/Ubuntu/whatever.
jpace121 4y ago
I really wish Red Hats Marketing was less bullshitty sometimes. I’ve been following the RHEL for Edge and RHEL Automotive development and Fedora IOT for a while now, and the technology is really nice, but this article is seemingly buzzword soup…
krnlpnc 4y ago
Oh great, now my car can be built with node microservices /s
UncleEntity 4y ago
I’m in as long as they make the buttons perform different on every update like the touchpad in my beloved Fedora running laptop. Oh, and turn on auto-update checking no matter how many times I manually turn it off.

78 points by ohjeez 4y ago

nice this sounds great!

This seems to target the "bigger" cpu's in a car, but there are tens of ECU's that are far smaller and that I think could benefit from a better platform. A much better one than AUTOSAR, which is a nightmare to work with. I swear I don't know what automakers are thinking with pushing AUTOSAR.

wyldfire 4y ago
Maybe zephyr [1] is a good option for those ECUs? or hubris [2]? [1] https://docs.zephyrproject.org/latest/introduction/index.html https://docs.zephyrproject.org/latest/introduction/index.htm... [2] https://github.com/oxidecomputer/hubris https://github.com/oxidecomputer/hubris
- AlotOfReading 4y ago
  Zephyr hasn't finished their certification package, to the best of my knowledge. It was supposed to be finished late last year, but I'm not sure what the current status is. That's typically a bare minimum for RTOS vendor selection, and the turnaround time between selection and deployment is typically 3+ years. Unfortunately still a bit premature right now.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago

> Automakers are moving toward providing more personalized and intuitive driving experiences while becoming more embedded within a driver’s personal ecosystem. Doing so creates opportunities for additional revenue streams and improved customer loyalty. The Red Hat In-Vehicle Operating System provides automakers with a common, updatable platform that enables automakers to better meet customer expectations via frequent and seamless feature upgrades and deployment of new applications and services. Honestly, this sounds horrible. This is PR speak for "Red Hat In-Vehicle Operating System will make it easier to serve ads and collect user data that can be sold."

RealityVoid 4y ago
How much can this damn' data be worth in order to risk the loyalty of people paying tens of thousands of dollars on your product? I assume the _actual_ profit they are making are in "addons" and extras that can be unlocked remotely.
- nerdponx 4y ago
  Because there is no loyalty risk. They are betting on a favorable regulatory environment and apathetic consumers for the next several years.
  - chris11 4y ago
    > apathetic consumers All automakers have to do is require access to that data for features, like maps, traffic updates, or entertainment. I hate the idea of in-car advertising, and I don't like the thought my data being sold. But I do give up some privacy for functionality. My biggest annoyance with my car is I don't have Android Auto for the maps, I use google maps when driving, and video from my ADAS is used as training data.
version_five 4y ago
Yeah I understand why they market it that way to automakers, but I wish there was a push to show what it could do for the consumer and create demand. I would love to have an open source OS that I could customize in my car. I understand there is stuff that for regulatory reasons can't change, but all the maps and music and whatnot I'd love control over
- netsharc 4y ago
  Meh, it seems like all infotainment computers get outdated a lot faster than the car, and they don't even have an advantage by being brand new because the manufacturer just slaps on something "the cheapest and slowest computer you can find, and just tolerable enough" to save costs. The car should just offer HDMI input for the display and speakers, and allow the computer to be upgradable. Even the display should be a module (say someone wants to upgrade to 4K OLED...), which makes me think the DIN got it right: https://www.bestcaraudio.com/what-is-a-double-din-car-radio/ https://www.bestcaraudio.com/what-is-a-double-din-car-radio/

StillBored 4y ago

Ok, color me confused, but what does this actually mean? It mentions fedora IoT, via the centos link, which is AFAIK just another Linux distribution (something like coreos, but not coreos?). Where does that fit in a car? Is linux real-time enough, for any of the actual control plane/etc? Is it certifiable? Which leaves what, the entertainment system? What does this provide that a android fork doesn't, longer support lifetimes? It can't actually be Linux can it? I mean RHEL is considered an ancient distro and it only does ~10 years. 10 years old is basically brand new in some car circles, where people are regularly driving 20-30 year old cars. The Linux of 2042 will likely be as unrecognizable as the Linux of 1999 is today, so this has to be something else right? I guess there is a midplane for non driving, non entertainment? AKA the electric windows, door locks, etc? Does that need a full blown heavyweight OS? Confused...

RealityVoid 4y ago
Besides the dashboard and the infotainment, more recent ADAS units usually have some sort of POSIX on them. But, yes, most of the systems are RTOS'es.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
soperj 4y ago
You mention an android fork and complain that RHEL is only supported for 10 years. How long is that fork supported for? Confused...
- StillBored 4y ago
  If it's an android fork with a 20 year lifetime, then I understand what it is. Is it? edit: I guess another way to put this is, looking at car's I wouldn't expect it to be linux. Maybe something entirely new, designed for real time, safety, and long term support. Maybe with an android style layer bolted on somewhere for the infotainment systems. Being redhat, open source of course. So, we can expect a Fuchsia like code drop at some point? Why not just say that and post it?

ra7 4y ago

Is this an alternative to Android Automotive [1]? [1] https://source.android.com/devices/automotive/start/what_automotive https://source.android.com/devices/automotive/start/what_aut...

thebeardisred 4y ago
No, this is related to IEEE/ASME functional safety.

kornhole 4y ago

This seems to be in an exploratory phase with many questions still on how to implement. I do see this as positive in general that big car makers such as GM are recognizing the benefits and willing to partner with IBM on building open source solutions. I recently evaluated several cars for purchase and had real difficulty with all of them because of the mysterious proprietary operating systems that I know are collecting data and sending to somewhere. Cars have become Iphones on wheels which sounds great to some people, but not to me. I ultimately decided not to purchase a new car and stick with an older more analogue one until an open source modern car would be available. I might be waiting a while, but I don't think I am alone in this predicament.

georgia_peach 4y ago
Looking at android, the open source data-probe is every bit as effective as the closed-source one. The idea of controlling heavy machinery with red hat seems nearly as inadvisable as controlling it with windows. -- "Computers can do better than ever what needn't be done at all. Making sense is still a human monopoly." - Marshall McLuhan

DoctorOW 4y ago

I feel like if there was a press release about IBM repackaging Linux to sell to manufacturers, the post here would have no positive response, maybe no negative response either. I feel like either apathy or cynicism. This is probably part of the value of the Red Hat purchase.

redisman 4y ago
I really don’t understand red hat. Are they just offering good enterprise support or something? I have never heard of anyone choosing Red Hat as their Linux flavor for their servers (or clients) or even in their top 10 flavors
- LinuxBender 4y ago
  I can only add my anecdotal experience. When the Linux servers are running proprietary code that has a high support cost it would often make sense to have a paid Linux distro as well to avoid finger pointing games. For example, even if I knew what the problem was I could put Redhat and Oracle on the phone together and let them hash it out. They would have to find the root cause and that would be provided to our customers regardless of what they find. I know it sounds weak but that was a good way to shield our business from paying out downtime credits when a vendor had a serious bug and tried to blame us. We had clauses to protect ourselves when we were not negligent. I know this will be an unpopular answer but I know that many large businesses follow this logic when writing their contracts.
- kbenson 4y ago
  > I have never heard of anyone choosing Red Hat as their Linux flavor for their servers (or clients) or even in their top 10 flavors Do you mean you've never seen someone running CentOS or Rocky? It sounds like that's what you're saying, and if so, that's really surprising.
- sofixa 4y ago
  Yes. They're "the norm" in some countries and business niches ( e.g. banking, but not Germany, there it'd be SUSE), software only comes packaged and tested for their OSes, etc. For everyone else, there's Debian/Ubuntu/whatever.

jpace121 4y ago

I really wish Red Hats Marketing was less bullshitty sometimes. I’ve been following the RHEL for Edge and RHEL Automotive development and Fedora IOT for a while now, and the technology is really nice, but this article is seemingly buzzword soup…

krnlpnc 4y ago

Oh great, now my car can be built with node microservices /s

UncleEntity 4y ago

I’m in as long as they make the buttons perform different on every update like the touchpad in my beloved Fedora running laptop. Oh, and turn on auto-update checking no matter how many times I manually turn it off.