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I went three indirections down and I still can't find any actual quotes or even summaries of concrete proposals, so I'm surprised how many people can confidentl

I went three indirections down and I still can't find any actual quotes or even summaries of concrete proposals, so I'm surprised how many people can confidently judge that these unexplained proposals are a dumpster fire solely on the basis that they aim to precent child sexual abuse material... The most specific thing I found was a linked document that laid out three possible legislation options, all in very loose language, of which one was an entirely voluntary system. Found from here https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-say/initiatives/12726-Fighting-child-sexual-abuse-detection-removal-and-reporting-of-illegal-content-online_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-sa...

xyzal 4y ago
I tried to find the proposal as well, without success.
feanaro 4y ago
> solely on the basis that they aim to precent child sexual abuse material... Solely on the basis of having to undermine end-to-end encryption in order to even begin working. Always use the most charitable interpretation of other people's arguments.
jka 4y ago
Here's one regulatory measure that's enforced already and seems to fit within the criteria being described: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2021/1232/oj https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2021/1232/oj (agreed, it would be nice to have direct links to the enacted and proposed regulations to compare and understand the language used)
- pimterry 4y ago
  'Enforced' isn't the right word for that legislation - it's a derogation, meaning it's removing rules, not creating them. Specifically, that regulation gives service providers a temporary legal mechanism to continue to scan their own traffic for CSAM, if and only if they want to do so, without breaking the law due to GDPR etc (which otherwise made doing so arguably illegal). It just re-legalized the scanning that service providers were doing voluntarily before GDPR, and which they're doing regardless outside the EU anyway.
  - jka 4y ago
    Thanks for the explainer, that makes sense.
stjohnswarts 4y ago
Anytime something starts out with "think of the children" (paraphrased), hold on to your wallet, your pocket-size Constitution, and pocket-size "rights of man". They are coming for your freedom.
- SiempreViernes 4y ago
  I've heard there is a need to improve primary education, but you'd have me believe this is a ploy to steal my copy of the constitution?
prof-dr-ir 4y ago
As you can easily check, Mr. Breyer's website has been at the top of HN multiple times in the past year or so, and invariably the comment section becomes an anti-EU pitchfork party based on nothing more than the linked text and various unhelpful stereotypes. Comments like yours, which justifiably ask for a primary source, have never been getting the attention they deserve. So let me explicitly go against the grain here: I believe the linked text to be fear-mongering and I also believe that the EU will not "break secure encryption" (or make it illegal) in the foreseeable future. And if Mr. Breyer or anyone else would like to convince me of the alternative then please show me some concrete evidence first.
- belter 4y ago
  >"... I also believe that the EU will not "break secure encryption" (or make it illegal) in the foreseeable future. And if Mr. Breyer or anyone else would like to convince me of the alternative then please show me some concrete evidence first..." "EU’s resolution on encryption foreshadows likely anti-encryption push": https://protonmail.com/blog/eu-attack-on-encryption/ https://protonmail.com/blog/eu-attack-on-encryption/ "EFF Tells E.U. Commission: Don't Break Encryption": https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/03/eff-tells-eu-commission-dont-break-encryption https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/03/eff-tells-eu-commissio... "Encryption: Council adopts resolution on security through encryption and security despite encryption": https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2020/12/14/encryption-council-adopts-resolution-on-security-through-encryption-and-security-despite-encryption/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2020... Particularly in the last reference you can hear it directly from the wolf's mouth: "...resolution on security through encryption and security despite encryption..." In other words, encryption they can access...
  - SiempreViernes 4y ago
    > In other words, encryption they can access... Access under the conditions that the > Technical solutions for gaining access to encrypted data must comply with the principles of legality, transparency, necessity and proportionality including protection of personal data by design and by default. Which means that the right to put something that clones the authentication session on a targeted device would do the job, no need to ban maths.

xyzal 4y ago

I tried to find the proposal as well, without success.

feanaro 4y ago

> solely on the basis that they aim to precent child sexual abuse material... Solely on the basis of having to undermine end-to-end encryption in order to even begin working. Always use the most charitable interpretation of other people's arguments.

jka 4y ago

Here's one regulatory measure that's enforced already and seems to fit within the criteria being described: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2021/1232/oj https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2021/1232/oj (agreed, it would be nice to have direct links to the enacted and proposed regulations to compare and understand the language used)

pimterry 4y ago
'Enforced' isn't the right word for that legislation - it's a derogation, meaning it's removing rules, not creating them. Specifically, that regulation gives service providers a temporary legal mechanism to continue to scan their own traffic for CSAM, if and only if they want to do so, without breaking the law due to GDPR etc (which otherwise made doing so arguably illegal). It just re-legalized the scanning that service providers were doing voluntarily before GDPR, and which they're doing regardless outside the EU anyway.
- jka 4y ago
  Thanks for the explainer, that makes sense.

stjohnswarts 4y ago

Anytime something starts out with "think of the children" (paraphrased), hold on to your wallet, your pocket-size Constitution, and pocket-size "rights of man". They are coming for your freedom.

SiempreViernes 4y ago
I've heard there is a need to improve primary education, but you'd have me believe this is a ploy to steal my copy of the constitution?

prof-dr-ir 4y ago

As you can easily check, Mr. Breyer's website has been at the top of HN multiple times in the past year or so, and invariably the comment section becomes an anti-EU pitchfork party based on nothing more than the linked text and various unhelpful stereotypes. Comments like yours, which justifiably ask for a primary source, have never been getting the attention they deserve. So let me explicitly go against the grain here: I believe the linked text to be fear-mongering and I also believe that the EU will not "break secure encryption" (or make it illegal) in the foreseeable future. And if Mr. Breyer or anyone else would like to convince me of the alternative then please show me some concrete evidence first.

belter 4y ago
>"... I also believe that the EU will not "break secure encryption" (or make it illegal) in the foreseeable future. And if Mr. Breyer or anyone else would like to convince me of the alternative then please show me some concrete evidence first..." "EU’s resolution on encryption foreshadows likely anti-encryption push": https://protonmail.com/blog/eu-attack-on-encryption/ https://protonmail.com/blog/eu-attack-on-encryption/ "EFF Tells E.U. Commission: Don't Break Encryption": https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/03/eff-tells-eu-commission-dont-break-encryption https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/03/eff-tells-eu-commissio... "Encryption: Council adopts resolution on security through encryption and security despite encryption": https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2020/12/14/encryption-council-adopts-resolution-on-security-through-encryption-and-security-despite-encryption/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2020... Particularly in the last reference you can hear it directly from the wolf's mouth: "...resolution on security through encryption and security despite encryption..." In other words, encryption they can access...
- SiempreViernes 4y ago
  > In other words, encryption they can access... Access under the conditions that the > Technical solutions for gaining access to encrypted data must comply with the principles of legality, transparency, necessity and proportionality including protection of personal data by design and by default. Which means that the right to put something that clones the authentication session on a targeted device would do the job, no need to ban maths.