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Abortion is especially strange since a supermajority of Americans, across the political spectrum, of both genders, generally agree that some abortions should be

Abortion is especially strange since a supermajority of Americans, across the political spectrum, of both genders, generally agree that some abortions should be permitted [1]. 70% want to keep the status quo. [2] It's even arguably a violation of the religious freedom of Jewish folks to ban abortion [3]. It's not forbidden by the Bible either - the Bible makes it clear that life begins 'at first breath' (Genesis 2:7) [4]. Super weird. [edit] Feels like the anti-abortion folks are the dog that caught the bus. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/05/06/about-six-in-ten-americans-say-abortion-should-be-legal-in-all-or-most-cases/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/05/06/about-six-i... [2] https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/where-americans-stand-on-abortion-in-5-charts/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/where-americans-stand-o... [3] https://www.businessinsider.com/abortion-bans-may-violate-jewish-womens-first-amendment-rights-2022-5?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/abortion-bans-may-violate-je... [4] https://ffrf.org/component/k2/item/26087-abortion-nontract#when-does-life-begin https://ffrf.org/component/k2/item/26087-abortion-nontract#w...

pyinstallwoes 5y ago
The stipulation comes at the definition of what life is and what taking life away is. It’s a very difficult thing to define what life is, thus legally it is for lack of a better phrasing “a can of worms.” If you’re programming minded, you may see how such a definition is ambiguous and opens many attack vectors for interpretation. After seeing it this way, I began to understand why it’s so hotly contested.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- narag 5y ago
  Best legal definition I've heard involves death. When is a person considered dead? Brain activity ceased irreversibly. In the opposite end you have first brain activity (around three months since fecundation) as the best milestone. Of course there is philosophical discussion that goes beyond that, but since making it a crime is a legal matter, it's probably within reason.
  - robonerd 5y ago
    > Best legal definition I've heard involves death. When is a person considered dead? Even that can become fiercely political.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion_and_activism_in_the_Terri_Schiavo_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion_and_activism_in...
  - dane-pgp 5y ago
    > In the opposite end Although it might be convenient to treat life as being somehow legally symmetrical, I think that is still a position that needs to be justified. To give a strange analogy, if someone gathers all the materials needed to make a bomb, but doesn't mix them together, they can still be arrested for bomb-making, even though, in a strictly chemical sense, they haven't made anything that can donate.
kccoder 5y ago
You are making the mistake of assuming that those deciding care about facts or public opinion, or can be shamed if shown to behave hypocritically or inconsistently. They simply don't care and will proceed to do as they please, inventing reasoning and interpretation to support whatever outcome they want, regardless of what % of the population disagrees. Tyranny of the minority has arrived.
caterpi11ar 5y ago
That Bible passage is about God blowing His breath into Adam who was non-biological clay up to that point. It has nothing to do with Adam taking his first breath. Obviously, Adam was never a foetus, nor was he a child, nor a teenager. As according to this passage life starts when you are a full grown man, should we allow abortions into the 108th trimester?
- arcticbull 5y ago
  the Old Testament does say you can stone your belligerent child to death outside the city walls if you like (Deuteronomy 21:18-21 [1]) - after all, what is the death penalty if not a very late abortion plus some due diligence? However, more interestingly, do you think you could cite where (a) the Bible forbids abortion or (b) the Bible makes clear that life begins at any point prior to birth? [1] https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2021%3A18-21&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%202...
  - caterpi11ar 5y ago
    I have no interest in discussing The Bible further with you given that you blatantly misrepresented a passage and then shifted the goal posts when questioned about it.
    - arcticbull 5y ago
      So that's a no, then. Noted.
      - caterpi11ar 5y ago
        You've won the debate by proving yourself to be dishonest, congrats.
    - Ensorceled 5y ago
      > However, more interestingly, do you think you could cite where (a) the Bible forbids abortion or (b) the Bible makes clear that life begins at any point prior to birth? I too, am interested in this answer and have not misrepresented any biblical passages.
TheFreim 5y ago
> It's even arguably a violation of the religious freedom of Jewish folks to ban abortion This argument, and arguments like it, miss the nature of the issue. If abortion is the immoral killing of an innocent human being/person, as pro-lifers claim, then it doesn't matter if it's a Christian/jewish/other religious ritual [see note] (we don't allow child sacrifice even if it's a sincerely held religious ritual). If abortion is amoral, simply removing unwanted cells/not violating the rights of any individual then and only then does the religious ritual argument for remaining legal make sense. To summarize, the "religious ritual" argument only works if you presume that the pro-choice view is correct. If pro-life claims are correct it's irrelevant. This and similar arguments distract from the true issue and prevent people from understanding the other. --- Note: I understand abortion isn't necessarily a "ritual" in Judaism, just that it's permitted (mandated?) in certain situations. I simply use the term "ritual" to signify either a ritual or a religiously allowed practice.
- mcv 5y ago
  > If abortion is the immoral killing of an innocent human being/person, as pro-lifers claim Yeah, but is it? Both legally and biblically, personhood starts at birth. Nobody I know of holds funerals for their miscarriage, or gives it a name. At least not for early stage miscarriages (which, as with abortions, are far, far more common than miscarriages and abortions late in the pregnancy).
robonerd 5y ago
Incidentally, about a third of Republicans and about a third of Democrats disagree with their party about abortion. This difference is not reflected the congresspeople of those parties, who are more united in their position than the people they ostensibly represent. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/06/18/three-in-ten-or-more-democrats-and-republicans-dont-agree-with-their-party-on-abortion/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/06/18/three-in-te...
UnpossibleJim 5y ago
I mean, the whole argument on the sacredness of life by the religious right is hypocritical as the new testament is anti war, and any justification of war doesn't come about until post 400 A.D. when the "saints" weigh in on the subjects. The apostles were pretty "hippy-ish" about it.[1] Their pro-life stance would hold A LOT more weight if they were out protesting wars and military spending, not to mention foreign occupation through military means and trying to have that money spent on humanitarian programs. I give credit to the Amish for at least being consistent (and no, I'm not religious). [1] https://www.christianbiblereference.org/faq_war.htm https://www.christianbiblereference.org/faq_war.htm
- mcv 5y ago
  How about opposition to the death penalty and support for good health care? That would be a lot more pro-life, and are things Jesus actually addressed: heal the sick, and "let he who is without sin throw the first stone". I'm Christian, but I see no biblical argument against abortion. I'm not a fan of abortion, mind you; I think any abortion is a tragedy on some level, and unwanted pregnancies are better prevented than aborted, but sometimes medical complications simply make abortion necessary. And I'd rather leave the hard decisions in the hands of the people affected by them than having legislators force those decisions on them.
  - UnpossibleJim 5y ago
    >>unwanted pregnancies are better prevented than aborted<< I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't agree with this statement. The narrative that abortion is used as a form of contraception is largely a false one, but accidents do happen. Most of the women who get abortions already have a child, surprisingly. [1] EDIT -> well, I was surprised, I guess I should say [1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/12/14/upshot/who-gets-abortions-in-america.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/12/14/upshot/who-ge...
    - mcv 5y ago
      > I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't agree with this statement. You'd think, and yet there are pro-lifers who oppose abortion and yet also want to make contraception less accessible. Not everybody has a rational or even logically consistent position in this.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

pyinstallwoes 5y ago

The stipulation comes at the definition of what life is and what taking life away is. It’s a very difficult thing to define what life is, thus legally it is for lack of a better phrasing “a can of worms.” If you’re programming minded, you may see how such a definition is ambiguous and opens many attack vectors for interpretation. After seeing it this way, I began to understand why it’s so hotly contested.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
narag 5y ago
Best legal definition I've heard involves death. When is a person considered dead? Brain activity ceased irreversibly. In the opposite end you have first brain activity (around three months since fecundation) as the best milestone. Of course there is philosophical discussion that goes beyond that, but since making it a crime is a legal matter, it's probably within reason.
- robonerd 5y ago
  > Best legal definition I've heard involves death. When is a person considered dead? Even that can become fiercely political.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion_and_activism_in_the_Terri_Schiavo_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion_and_activism_in...
- dane-pgp 5y ago
  > In the opposite end Although it might be convenient to treat life as being somehow legally symmetrical, I think that is still a position that needs to be justified. To give a strange analogy, if someone gathers all the materials needed to make a bomb, but doesn't mix them together, they can still be arrested for bomb-making, even though, in a strictly chemical sense, they haven't made anything that can donate.

kccoder 5y ago

You are making the mistake of assuming that those deciding care about facts or public opinion, or can be shamed if shown to behave hypocritically or inconsistently. They simply don't care and will proceed to do as they please, inventing reasoning and interpretation to support whatever outcome they want, regardless of what % of the population disagrees. Tyranny of the minority has arrived.

caterpi11ar 5y ago

That Bible passage is about God blowing His breath into Adam who was non-biological clay up to that point. It has nothing to do with Adam taking his first breath. Obviously, Adam was never a foetus, nor was he a child, nor a teenager. As according to this passage life starts when you are a full grown man, should we allow abortions into the 108th trimester?

arcticbull 5y ago
the Old Testament does say you can stone your belligerent child to death outside the city walls if you like (Deuteronomy 21:18-21 [1]) - after all, what is the death penalty if not a very late abortion plus some due diligence? However, more interestingly, do you think you could cite where (a) the Bible forbids abortion or (b) the Bible makes clear that life begins at any point prior to birth? [1] https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2021%3A18-21&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%202...
- caterpi11ar 5y ago
  I have no interest in discussing The Bible further with you given that you blatantly misrepresented a passage and then shifted the goal posts when questioned about it.
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    So that's a no, then. Noted.
    - caterpi11ar 5y ago
      You've won the debate by proving yourself to be dishonest, congrats.
  - Ensorceled 5y ago
    > However, more interestingly, do you think you could cite where (a) the Bible forbids abortion or (b) the Bible makes clear that life begins at any point prior to birth? I too, am interested in this answer and have not misrepresented any biblical passages.

TheFreim 5y ago

> It's even arguably a violation of the religious freedom of Jewish folks to ban abortion This argument, and arguments like it, miss the nature of the issue. If abortion is the immoral killing of an innocent human being/person, as pro-lifers claim, then it doesn't matter if it's a Christian/jewish/other religious ritual [see note] (we don't allow child sacrifice even if it's a sincerely held religious ritual). If abortion is amoral, simply removing unwanted cells/not violating the rights of any individual then and only then does the religious ritual argument for remaining legal make sense. To summarize, the "religious ritual" argument only works if you presume that the pro-choice view is correct. If pro-life claims are correct it's irrelevant. This and similar arguments distract from the true issue and prevent people from understanding the other. --- Note: I understand abortion isn't necessarily a "ritual" in Judaism, just that it's permitted (mandated?) in certain situations. I simply use the term "ritual" to signify either a ritual or a religiously allowed practice.

mcv 5y ago
> If abortion is the immoral killing of an innocent human being/person, as pro-lifers claim Yeah, but is it? Both legally and biblically, personhood starts at birth. Nobody I know of holds funerals for their miscarriage, or gives it a name. At least not for early stage miscarriages (which, as with abortions, are far, far more common than miscarriages and abortions late in the pregnancy).

robonerd 5y ago

Incidentally, about a third of Republicans and about a third of Democrats disagree with their party about abortion. This difference is not reflected the congresspeople of those parties, who are more united in their position than the people they ostensibly represent. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/06/18/three-in-ten-or-more-democrats-and-republicans-dont-agree-with-their-party-on-abortion/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/06/18/three-in-te...

UnpossibleJim 5y ago

I mean, the whole argument on the sacredness of life by the religious right is hypocritical as the new testament is anti war, and any justification of war doesn't come about until post 400 A.D. when the "saints" weigh in on the subjects. The apostles were pretty "hippy-ish" about it.[1] Their pro-life stance would hold A LOT more weight if they were out protesting wars and military spending, not to mention foreign occupation through military means and trying to have that money spent on humanitarian programs. I give credit to the Amish for at least being consistent (and no, I'm not religious). [1] https://www.christianbiblereference.org/faq_war.htm https://www.christianbiblereference.org/faq_war.htm

mcv 5y ago
How about opposition to the death penalty and support for good health care? That would be a lot more pro-life, and are things Jesus actually addressed: heal the sick, and "let he who is without sin throw the first stone". I'm Christian, but I see no biblical argument against abortion. I'm not a fan of abortion, mind you; I think any abortion is a tragedy on some level, and unwanted pregnancies are better prevented than aborted, but sometimes medical complications simply make abortion necessary. And I'd rather leave the hard decisions in the hands of the people affected by them than having legislators force those decisions on them.
- UnpossibleJim 5y ago
  >>unwanted pregnancies are better prevented than aborted<< I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't agree with this statement. The narrative that abortion is used as a form of contraception is largely a false one, but accidents do happen. Most of the women who get abortions already have a child, surprisingly. [1] EDIT -> well, I was surprised, I guess I should say [1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/12/14/upshot/who-gets-abortions-in-america.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/12/14/upshot/who-ge...
  - mcv 5y ago
    > I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't agree with this statement. You'd think, and yet there are pro-lifers who oppose abortion and yet also want to make contraception less accessible. Not everybody has a rational or even logically consistent position in this.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]