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The very idea of the EU is to move control away from democratically elected governments. It is designed to prevent democratic participation of its people. The o

The very idea of the EU is to move control away from democratically elected governments. It is designed to prevent democratic participation of its people. The one direct democratic structure, the European Parliament, is toothless, and being defanged, and the Commission is an organisation made up by politicians you want to get rid of at home (because of looming political scandals usually). Can't get your dystopian policy through at home? Delegate it to Brussels, then publicly claim that 'it can't be helped, it's an EU directive', washing your hands in innocence. I do understand why the British decided to leave. It was a crazy idea, it's incredibly damaging to their economy, but subjectively, I can understand them.

PortiaBerries 4y ago
How can it be a "crazy idea" to leave what you describe in your first 2 paragraphs? Crazy just economically?
- DocTomoe 4y ago
  In the end, most people are even happy living under the most brutal of dictatorships as long as they themselves live a relatively comfortable life, and for that you need a working economy (and the hand of luck protecting you from being in the group that said dictatorship thinks the scapegoat should be). The same is much more true for "well, this is essentially not a democracy anymore, and has some weird tendencies, but at least we're not forced to salute the flag every morning in school" style systems.
denton-scratch 4y ago
I'm a brit that voted exit because of the EU democratic deficit, not because of xenophobia. I expected it to damage the economy for a decade, and I stilll wanted out. I knew that would put me in the same group as the xenophobic racists, but I still voted out. I also knew it would cause pain; the last people I wanted at the wheel during Brexit was Boris Johnson and the Tories. But I voted Brexit anyway, because I figured that it would be a very long time before we'd be allowed a referendum on EU membership again. I consider myself European, and I welcomed the UK joining the EU back then. But over the years, I've seen new entrants promptly ignoring the financial rules, the division-of-powers rules, and a bunch of other rules, and not get kicked out, or even sanctioned. I don't want to be in a union of governments with authoritarian racists.
- dane-pgp 4y ago
  > and a bunch of other rules, and not get kicked out, or even sanctioned. So you're saying you voted for Brexit because the EU didn't have enough power to punish member states? Do you think that these new entrants were the only ones breaking the rules with no consequences?[0] > I don't want to be in a union of governments with authoritarian racists. Leaving the EU doesn't help make Hungary (for example) become any less authoritarian or racist, and it certainly hasn't made Boris Johnson and the Tories any less authoritarian or racist, so you're still in such a union. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/mar/04/uk-has-broken-air-pollution-limits-for-a-decade-eu-court-finds https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/mar/04/uk-has-b...
  - denton-scratch 4y ago
    > the only ones breaking the rules Of course not. Rules get broken all the time. But as the years went by, I came to realise that the EU didn't embody the principles it claimed to stand for (and of which I approved). > Leaving the EU doesn't help make Hungary (for example) become any less authoritarian Moderating the atavistic instincts of other countries isn't a good reason for being in a political union. > Boris Johnson and the Tories I have half a chance of voting them out. It's not possible to vote Hungary and Poland off the EU Commission. The fact is, we're out; I voted to leave; I'm not regretful. I knew there would be consequences. They've not been as severe as I expected (yet). I generally avoid debating Brexit with people; it's done and dusted. When it was still a live debate it was VERY divisive, because EU membership embraces so many aspects of life and politics. It's almost impossible to win (or lose) a Brexit debate. But I'm not ashamed of my decision, so I'm prepared to stand up and defend it. I think a renewed Brexit debate would be off-topic here, though. FTR, I have nothing against Poles or Hungarians. Their governments have never been aligned with what I thought were the EU principles, though. Greece acceded despite not meeting the financial requirements for membership; it was then financially crushed by Germany (more specifically, German bankers). That did cause me shame.
    - dane-pgp 4y ago
      Thank you for your honest answers. For what it's worth, I don't think you're a bad person for voting the way you did. > the EU didn't embody the principles it claimed to stand for (and of which I approved). But is it possible that you were holding it to a higher standard than you hold your own country to? > Moderating the atavistic instincts of other countries isn't a good reason for being in a political union. Turning that around, though: reducing the moderation on those atavistic instincts is not a good way to further the principles you claim to support. In any case, there are other, more positive, reasons to be an international trade and peace agreement than just a duty to look out for your neighbours. > I have half a chance of voting them out. It's not possible to vote Hungary and Poland off the EU Commission. But the problem isn't the nationality of the commissioners, because you're not a racist, right? The Council of Ministers only nominates the various members of the Commission, in agreement with the nominated President, and the 27 members as a team are then subject to a vote of approval by the European Parliament.[0] So you had more chance of voting out an atavistic Hungarian or Polish commissioner (through your MEP, and President) than you had of determining the composition of Boris Johnson's cabinet (especially considering the more proportional voting system used by the EU). > Greece acceded despite not meeting the financial requirements for membership; it was then financially crushed by Germany (more specifically, German bankers) If Greece did not meet the financial requirements, it is because of fraud carried out by Greece itself, without the EU's knowledge[1]. Greece abusing its position in the Eurozone to leverage itself into an unsustainable economic position is not something you need to be ashamed of, no matter the nationality of the bankers who were Greece's creditors. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece#Eurozone_entry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece#Eurozone_ent...

PortiaBerries 4y ago

How can it be a "crazy idea" to leave what you describe in your first 2 paragraphs? Crazy just economically?

DocTomoe 4y ago
In the end, most people are even happy living under the most brutal of dictatorships as long as they themselves live a relatively comfortable life, and for that you need a working economy (and the hand of luck protecting you from being in the group that said dictatorship thinks the scapegoat should be). The same is much more true for "well, this is essentially not a democracy anymore, and has some weird tendencies, but at least we're not forced to salute the flag every morning in school" style systems.

denton-scratch 4y ago

I'm a brit that voted exit because of the EU democratic deficit, not because of xenophobia. I expected it to damage the economy for a decade, and I stilll wanted out. I knew that would put me in the same group as the xenophobic racists, but I still voted out. I also knew it would cause pain; the last people I wanted at the wheel during Brexit was Boris Johnson and the Tories. But I voted Brexit anyway, because I figured that it would be a very long time before we'd be allowed a referendum on EU membership again. I consider myself European, and I welcomed the UK joining the EU back then. But over the years, I've seen new entrants promptly ignoring the financial rules, the division-of-powers rules, and a bunch of other rules, and not get kicked out, or even sanctioned. I don't want to be in a union of governments with authoritarian racists.

dane-pgp 4y ago
> and a bunch of other rules, and not get kicked out, or even sanctioned. So you're saying you voted for Brexit because the EU didn't have enough power to punish member states? Do you think that these new entrants were the only ones breaking the rules with no consequences?[0] > I don't want to be in a union of governments with authoritarian racists. Leaving the EU doesn't help make Hungary (for example) become any less authoritarian or racist, and it certainly hasn't made Boris Johnson and the Tories any less authoritarian or racist, so you're still in such a union. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/mar/04/uk-has-broken-air-pollution-limits-for-a-decade-eu-court-finds https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/mar/04/uk-has-b...
- denton-scratch 4y ago
  > the only ones breaking the rules Of course not. Rules get broken all the time. But as the years went by, I came to realise that the EU didn't embody the principles it claimed to stand for (and of which I approved). > Leaving the EU doesn't help make Hungary (for example) become any less authoritarian Moderating the atavistic instincts of other countries isn't a good reason for being in a political union. > Boris Johnson and the Tories I have half a chance of voting them out. It's not possible to vote Hungary and Poland off the EU Commission. The fact is, we're out; I voted to leave; I'm not regretful. I knew there would be consequences. They've not been as severe as I expected (yet). I generally avoid debating Brexit with people; it's done and dusted. When it was still a live debate it was VERY divisive, because EU membership embraces so many aspects of life and politics. It's almost impossible to win (or lose) a Brexit debate. But I'm not ashamed of my decision, so I'm prepared to stand up and defend it. I think a renewed Brexit debate would be off-topic here, though. FTR, I have nothing against Poles or Hungarians. Their governments have never been aligned with what I thought were the EU principles, though. Greece acceded despite not meeting the financial requirements for membership; it was then financially crushed by Germany (more specifically, German bankers). That did cause me shame.
  - dane-pgp 4y ago
    Thank you for your honest answers. For what it's worth, I don't think you're a bad person for voting the way you did. > the EU didn't embody the principles it claimed to stand for (and of which I approved). But is it possible that you were holding it to a higher standard than you hold your own country to? > Moderating the atavistic instincts of other countries isn't a good reason for being in a political union. Turning that around, though: reducing the moderation on those atavistic instincts is not a good way to further the principles you claim to support. In any case, there are other, more positive, reasons to be an international trade and peace agreement than just a duty to look out for your neighbours. > I have half a chance of voting them out. It's not possible to vote Hungary and Poland off the EU Commission. But the problem isn't the nationality of the commissioners, because you're not a racist, right? The Council of Ministers only nominates the various members of the Commission, in agreement with the nominated President, and the 27 members as a team are then subject to a vote of approval by the European Parliament.[0] So you had more chance of voting out an atavistic Hungarian or Polish commissioner (through your MEP, and President) than you had of determining the composition of Boris Johnson's cabinet (especially considering the more proportional voting system used by the EU). > Greece acceded despite not meeting the financial requirements for membership; it was then financially crushed by Germany (more specifically, German bankers) If Greece did not meet the financial requirements, it is because of fraud carried out by Greece itself, without the EU's knowledge[1]. Greece abusing its position in the Eurozone to leverage itself into an unsustainable economic position is not something you need to be ashamed of, no matter the nationality of the bankers who were Greece's creditors. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece#Eurozone_entry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece#Eurozone_ent...