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> Node.js is too easy to get started. This means that the pool of available programmers is not the highest quality. Runtimes like Go or Deno are still havens fo

by 3np 4y ago

> Node.js is too easy to get started. This means that the pool of available programmers is not the highest quality. Runtimes like Go or Deno are still havens for the ‘connoisseur’ programmer. wat (Deno seems worth checking out though!)

steve_adams_86 4y ago
I've been playing with Deno lately and I can assure the author, I'm no connoisseur
threatofrain 4y ago
This means at the level of their ability to draw in candidates, Deno interest is signal to their hiring pipeline of more quality. The consequence is their hiring pool is also that much smaller. One might say the same thing about Java v Go.
- RussianCow 4y ago
  > The consequence is their hiring pool is also that much smaller. In the current market, unless you're a big company that gets flooded with applications on a daily basis, why would you ever reduce your hiring pool arbitrarily? If you're a 13-person startup with good funding, you want all the candidates you can possibly get. Excluding potentially great engineers because they've never worked with Deno doesn't make any sense.
  - cercatrova 4y ago
    It does make sense, because you filter out the non enthusiasts, a proxy for great programmers. When Rust was still nascent, the people interested in it were likely to be of a higher quality bar than any regular old Javascript dev. That's not to say that JS is bad necessarily, just that enthusiasts correlate to great programming skills.
  - mattwad 4y ago
    Especially if you're a product-focused startup, the last thing you may actually need is an enthusiast for a language. 90% of the time you want people that just want to use the right tool for the job.
    - threatofrain 4y ago
      We're contending with the reasoning behind an observation, but the observation is already useable to the author of the post — if true. Is the author of the post seeing improvements in candidate quality because Deno is actually a proxy for burning the midnight oil? Who knows. If we generalize to Java vs Go will the observation hold? Who knows. But as chrisco255 pointed out, neither usage of Deno nor applying a weight to some observation will reduce your hiring pool. I would also say that a technological perspective of "right tool for the right job" is somewhat independent to the expensiveness of your hiring pipeline. Sometimes Erlang is the right tool for the right job, but that undoubtedly changes the experience of hiring.
  - chrisco255 4y ago
    My goodness, if you're excluding any hire because they've never worked with (insert new hotness here) you are simply making a big mistake in hiring, in general. Deno is still JS based at the end of the day and attempts to conform to web standards in its design. I don't know why in this particular case it would limit your pool. I could see how Golang vs Deno (JS) would impact your hiring pool dramatically though.
  - threatofrain 4y ago
    As chrisco255 pointed out downthread, I made a mistake in saying that Deno would reduce your hiring pool. That Deno is a signal in hiring does not mean you've lost out on Node talent, it just means that you've found a net gain in hiring by weighing Deno more strongly (assuming the blog post is correct). However, Java vs Go would probably make a big difference in terms of hiring pool size.
jonny_eh 4y ago
"Too easy to get started" is just gate keeping.
- my69thaccount 4y ago
  On one hand, JavaScript being easy makes programming accessible. On the other hand, the state of programming is terrible and getting worse. So you can't say if it's bad or not.
  - RussianCow 4y ago
    > On the other hand, the state of programming is terrible and getting worse. What does this mean? It's an order of magnitude easier to build an app/service/whatever today than it was a decade ago. Having to maintain separate code paths for IE because it doesn't support many of the APIs and CSS features you need was "terrible"; by comparison, engineering today is heavenly.
    - my69thaccount 4y ago
      Engineering might be easier, the user experience is magnitudes worse than a decade ago, pretty much universally.
  - kupopuffs 4y ago
    it's not getting worse. you're just getting older
    - jonny_eh 4y ago
      100%. If people want to still use Wordperfect 5.1, they still can.
  - wy35 4y ago
    It’s not getting worse. Go ahead and make a relatively complex app with jQuery 2.0 and let me know how it compares to spinning up a Next.js app.
golergka 4y ago
Same is true about Lisp and was true about Python in early 00s. Rare tech brings out enthusiasts.
- qayxc 4y ago
  Really? I never noticed any particularly high barrier of entry with either. Pygame for example was very popular with hobbyist game programmers in the early 2000s as it provided a much easier way to get started with game programming than C, which was the most popular alternative back then (Unity 3d only released in 2005 and Unreal Engine only became free in 2015). What I do remember from the early 2000s, though, was legions of aspiring game programmers struggling with C and C++.
duxup 4y ago
I've tried Deno. The author might rethink that line after interviewing me. Really though this seems almost like resume keyword checking level of a candidate quality check. Actually it sounds exactly like that...
14u2c 4y ago
Yea, this is one of the most garbage takes I've ever heard. Requiring the use of something esoteric is not suddenly going to allow you access to a pool of higher quality candidates. Instead you will still see the same pool, but now the average candidate will be even less knowledgeable about the technology. I do like Deno personally, but this reason is not a great one to do so.

by 3np 4y ago

steve_adams_86 4y ago

I've been playing with Deno lately and I can assure the author, I'm no connoisseur

threatofrain 4y ago

This means at the level of their ability to draw in candidates, Deno interest is signal to their hiring pipeline of more quality. The consequence is their hiring pool is also that much smaller. One might say the same thing about Java v Go.

RussianCow 4y ago
> The consequence is their hiring pool is also that much smaller. In the current market, unless you're a big company that gets flooded with applications on a daily basis, why would you ever reduce your hiring pool arbitrarily? If you're a 13-person startup with good funding, you want all the candidates you can possibly get. Excluding potentially great engineers because they've never worked with Deno doesn't make any sense.
- cercatrova 4y ago
  It does make sense, because you filter out the non enthusiasts, a proxy for great programmers. When Rust was still nascent, the people interested in it were likely to be of a higher quality bar than any regular old Javascript dev. That's not to say that JS is bad necessarily, just that enthusiasts correlate to great programming skills.
- mattwad 4y ago
  Especially if you're a product-focused startup, the last thing you may actually need is an enthusiast for a language. 90% of the time you want people that just want to use the right tool for the job.
  - threatofrain 4y ago
    We're contending with the reasoning behind an observation, but the observation is already useable to the author of the post — if true. Is the author of the post seeing improvements in candidate quality because Deno is actually a proxy for burning the midnight oil? Who knows. If we generalize to Java vs Go will the observation hold? Who knows. But as chrisco255 pointed out, neither usage of Deno nor applying a weight to some observation will reduce your hiring pool. I would also say that a technological perspective of "right tool for the right job" is somewhat independent to the expensiveness of your hiring pipeline. Sometimes Erlang is the right tool for the right job, but that undoubtedly changes the experience of hiring.
- chrisco255 4y ago
  My goodness, if you're excluding any hire because they've never worked with (insert new hotness here) you are simply making a big mistake in hiring, in general. Deno is still JS based at the end of the day and attempts to conform to web standards in its design. I don't know why in this particular case it would limit your pool. I could see how Golang vs Deno (JS) would impact your hiring pool dramatically though.
- threatofrain 4y ago
  As chrisco255 pointed out downthread, I made a mistake in saying that Deno would reduce your hiring pool. That Deno is a signal in hiring does not mean you've lost out on Node talent, it just means that you've found a net gain in hiring by weighing Deno more strongly (assuming the blog post is correct). However, Java vs Go would probably make a big difference in terms of hiring pool size.

jonny_eh 4y ago

"Too easy to get started" is just gate keeping.

my69thaccount 4y ago
On one hand, JavaScript being easy makes programming accessible. On the other hand, the state of programming is terrible and getting worse. So you can't say if it's bad or not.
- RussianCow 4y ago
  > On the other hand, the state of programming is terrible and getting worse. What does this mean? It's an order of magnitude easier to build an app/service/whatever today than it was a decade ago. Having to maintain separate code paths for IE because it doesn't support many of the APIs and CSS features you need was "terrible"; by comparison, engineering today is heavenly.
  - my69thaccount 4y ago
    Engineering might be easier, the user experience is magnitudes worse than a decade ago, pretty much universally.
- kupopuffs 4y ago
  it's not getting worse. you're just getting older
  - jonny_eh 4y ago
    100%. If people want to still use Wordperfect 5.1, they still can.
- wy35 4y ago
  It’s not getting worse. Go ahead and make a relatively complex app with jQuery 2.0 and let me know how it compares to spinning up a Next.js app.

golergka 4y ago

Same is true about Lisp and was true about Python in early 00s. Rare tech brings out enthusiasts.

qayxc 4y ago
Really? I never noticed any particularly high barrier of entry with either. Pygame for example was very popular with hobbyist game programmers in the early 2000s as it provided a much easier way to get started with game programming than C, which was the most popular alternative back then (Unity 3d only released in 2005 and Unreal Engine only became free in 2015). What I do remember from the early 2000s, though, was legions of aspiring game programmers struggling with C and C++.

duxup 4y ago

I've tried Deno. The author might rethink that line after interviewing me. Really though this seems almost like resume keyword checking level of a candidate quality check. Actually it sounds exactly like that...

14u2c 4y ago

Yea, this is one of the most garbage takes I've ever heard. Requiring the use of something esoteric is not suddenly going to allow you access to a pool of higher quality candidates. Instead you will still see the same pool, but now the average candidate will be even less knowledgeable about the technology. I do like Deno personally, but this reason is not a great one to do so.