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I have as well, and honestly I'd classify something that's 100k+ LOC as a "mega-monolith" vs. what devs would traditionally consider a "monolith" You don't get

I have as well, and honestly I'd classify something that's 100k+ LOC as a "mega-monolith" vs. what devs would traditionally consider a "monolith" You don't get to that LOC count without huge teams and decades of time. Any project of that timeline/complexity/size should constantly be having functionality split off so that organizational units can be better groked/understood. To put it a different way, when projects hit this sorta size I have experienced them naturally shedding off functionality that makes sense to be external in a service-based development strategy. These are the situations where it 100% makes sense for microservice architecture as you've hit the social/technical complexities where breaking things into organizational units makes sense.

pixl97 4y ago
I only wish the monoliths my customers were dealing with were tiny 100k LOC projects. I've seen 5MLOC+ nightmares filled with all the terrors you'd expect like unused libraries and dead code that looks should be unreachable, but actually is and creates security issues.
jandrewrogers 4y ago
Wait, what? 100k+ LoC is more like a "two-pizza" team and a few years, empirically. And this is in C++, a language where LoC don't flow nearly as quickly as in other languages. Even extremely complex code bases (think database engines) are entirely manageable at this scale and beyond without introducing microservices. Monoliths will scale into millions of LoC with little loss of effectiveness if your code base and processes are setup correctly. You are describing the consequences of poor architecture and process, not anything intrinsic to software projects.
- peterangular 4y ago
  > empirically Right, and our empirical observations over these topics are different. I just read your profile and frankly the projects/industries that we are involved in are very different, only confirmed by throwing "C++" out there - the closest I get to that is some hobbyist C development. I apologize for agreeing with parent comment's generalization at 100k LOC being a "mega-monolith", along with what I added with team sizes/decades for timelines. Empirically and anecdotally this is what I personally have observed, specifically in regulated fields ie: banking, payments, and education. This is a perfect example as-to what happens when I don't include the word "anecdotal" in my HN comments... Developers from different industry niches have very different ideals in regards to what a "monolith" is, or what a "two-pizza" team is capable of over time. I find your "wait what?" comment to be a bit dismissive, only to end your comment directly telling me what I am describing which clearly implies I don't know what I'm talking about. We likely just have different experiences with project complexities, sizes, teams, etc. Sorry if this comes off as aggressive.
CipherThrowaway 4y ago
I feel like I am going absolutely nuts reading this thread. 10K LoC is 2-3 months of work for a single person hobby project. 100K LoC is maybe a 2-3 person dev team for 2 years. That's assuming a refactored codebase with no copy-paste repetition. "Append only" codebases with heavy copy-pasting can easily get larger than that in shorter amounts of time. Huge teams and decades of time gets you to 1M+ range, not the 100K+ range.
- peterangular 4y ago
  In a large corporation with tons of people constantly reinventing the wheel for no reason only for resume bullet points... where you spend two months on test specs before putting down a single LOC because "TDD", where you have to work with regulators, auditors, etc... I feel weird defending myself but... yeah. This is actually my experience. I get that teams at FAANGs/startups can typically move faster but for your run-of-the-mill corporate America development teams people do not move that fast. Personally, I have only moved that fast at startups which is why I typically find myself at them. Again, this is anecdotal to my personal experience.
  - CipherThrowaway 4y ago
    That makes sense. It just shows how much variation there is across different areas.

pixl97 4y ago

I only wish the monoliths my customers were dealing with were tiny 100k LOC projects. I've seen 5MLOC+ nightmares filled with all the terrors you'd expect like unused libraries and dead code that looks should be unreachable, but actually is and creates security issues.

jandrewrogers 4y ago

Wait, what? 100k+ LoC is more like a "two-pizza" team and a few years, empirically. And this is in C++, a language where LoC don't flow nearly as quickly as in other languages. Even extremely complex code bases (think database engines) are entirely manageable at this scale and beyond without introducing microservices. Monoliths will scale into millions of LoC with little loss of effectiveness if your code base and processes are setup correctly. You are describing the consequences of poor architecture and process, not anything intrinsic to software projects.

peterangular 4y ago
> empirically Right, and our empirical observations over these topics are different. I just read your profile and frankly the projects/industries that we are involved in are very different, only confirmed by throwing "C++" out there - the closest I get to that is some hobbyist C development. I apologize for agreeing with parent comment's generalization at 100k LOC being a "mega-monolith", along with what I added with team sizes/decades for timelines. Empirically and anecdotally this is what I personally have observed, specifically in regulated fields ie: banking, payments, and education. This is a perfect example as-to what happens when I don't include the word "anecdotal" in my HN comments... Developers from different industry niches have very different ideals in regards to what a "monolith" is, or what a "two-pizza" team is capable of over time. I find your "wait what?" comment to be a bit dismissive, only to end your comment directly telling me what I am describing which clearly implies I don't know what I'm talking about. We likely just have different experiences with project complexities, sizes, teams, etc. Sorry if this comes off as aggressive.

CipherThrowaway 4y ago

I feel like I am going absolutely nuts reading this thread. 10K LoC is 2-3 months of work for a single person hobby project. 100K LoC is maybe a 2-3 person dev team for 2 years. That's assuming a refactored codebase with no copy-paste repetition. "Append only" codebases with heavy copy-pasting can easily get larger than that in shorter amounts of time. Huge teams and decades of time gets you to 1M+ range, not the 100K+ range.

peterangular 4y ago
In a large corporation with tons of people constantly reinventing the wheel for no reason only for resume bullet points... where you spend two months on test specs before putting down a single LOC because "TDD", where you have to work with regulators, auditors, etc... I feel weird defending myself but... yeah. This is actually my experience. I get that teams at FAANGs/startups can typically move faster but for your run-of-the-mill corporate America development teams people do not move that fast. Personally, I have only moved that fast at startups which is why I typically find myself at them. Again, this is anecdotal to my personal experience.
- CipherThrowaway 4y ago
  That makes sense. It just shows how much variation there is across different areas.