3 ms·

"wake me up when cheap outsourced developers actually works out. " You're missing the point here. They're not going to be hiring from 'body shops' they're jus

"wake me up when cheap outsourced developers actually works out. " You're missing the point here. They're not going to be hiring from 'body shops' they're just going to be hiring people 'remote' - just like you. Why do you think that you in 'Small Town Ohio' are going to get hired over the guy in France at 80 cents on the dollar, or Poland 60 cents on the dollar, when they have decent language skills. You're going to find out quickly that 'core education' in a lot of countries is as high, if not higher than US. Brazil has iffy educational standards but their upper 1/3 get a good education, and India the ratio is worse but population higher. The number of good devs. from China is blowing up. US is 5% of the world's population, and educational standards vary. It's a big world and Google etc. have no 'loyalty' to America.

peteradio 4y ago
At some point you end up shitting your own bed with this behavior. Development will cease to be lucrative if this plays out, so now you have a deficient technical knowledge base in America and a deficient manufacturing base? What exactly is America's future here? I really don't think you can be deficient in both or there is nothing left but pure balls.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > What exactly is America's future here? I really don't think you can be deficient in both or there is nothing left but pure balls. Shithole country that can't do shit, with a capitalist upper-class that's rich enough to insulate themselves from the shithole aspects. It's the libertarian utopia we've all dreamed about. It will last until the foreign societies cease to recognize the American upper-class's paper ownership interests.
- JohnWhigham 4y ago
  That's why you have to get out as soon as you can. The money in being a code monkey in the West is on borrowed time. The tried and true money is in management. Managing people always pays well.
  - peteradio 4y ago
    How is the management class supposed to manage technical work they ultimately grow out of touch with? An individual isn't going to be able to project power across an ocean, so why do they need you in particular? Sounds like a race to the bottom as far as the notion of becoming a manager to outsourced labor, I'm doubtful there is enough management work to absorb an influx of former ICs.
a_imho 4y ago
You are assuming remote people are OK with being second or third class employees. I'm not sure how long this is going to be true in the post covid world. https://elsajohansson.wordpress.com/2017/09/13/what-does-a-wage-gap-look-like/ https://elsajohansson.wordpress.com/2017/09/13/what-does-a-w...
- MontyCarloHall 4y ago
  A compensation gap only matters if it also leads to a gap in living standards. Tech salaries in the US are fairly homogenous with respect to cost of living; a developer in Ohio making an Ohio-adjusted salary would be able to afford similar things as a developer in the Bay Area making a Bay Area salary. (In fact, I'd bet that the Ohioan would be able to afford a much nicer house; CoL does not scale uniformly across goods and services with respect to location.) However, tech salaries in the US are much higher than tech salaries in Europe even after adjusting for cost-of-living. That is what leads to resentment: a developer in London making a London salary would not be able to afford the same things as a developer in New York making a New York salary.
- jollybean 4y ago
  ? Nothing I said about that assumed those employees would accept being 'second or third class employees'. They're going to be 'employees'. Now - they will be paid less - yes (maybe that's what you meant?) But that's a function of supply and demand. They will absolutely accept 'less' because it's where they sit on the supply/demand curve.
  - a_imho 4y ago
    Discrimination is not a function of supply and demand, it is a function of lack of legal protection. One can argue underleveraged groups does not deserve equal treatment unless they can overpower their situation, but personally I disagree with that opinion. I also totally understand if someone feels their salary is under threat and does not want to treat others fairly due to that. To be completely honest, there is a nonzero chance I would do the same if I was on the good end of the deal as well. I'm not holding my breath over the situation changing in the near future, but 2 years of remote work do make people reconsider things.

peteradio 4y ago

At some point you end up shitting your own bed with this behavior. Development will cease to be lucrative if this plays out, so now you have a deficient technical knowledge base in America and a deficient manufacturing base? What exactly is America's future here? I really don't think you can be deficient in both or there is nothing left but pure balls.

tablespoon 4y ago
> What exactly is America's future here? I really don't think you can be deficient in both or there is nothing left but pure balls. Shithole country that can't do shit, with a capitalist upper-class that's rich enough to insulate themselves from the shithole aspects. It's the libertarian utopia we've all dreamed about. It will last until the foreign societies cease to recognize the American upper-class's paper ownership interests.
JohnWhigham 4y ago
That's why you have to get out as soon as you can. The money in being a code monkey in the West is on borrowed time. The tried and true money is in management. Managing people always pays well.
- peteradio 4y ago
  How is the management class supposed to manage technical work they ultimately grow out of touch with? An individual isn't going to be able to project power across an ocean, so why do they need you in particular? Sounds like a race to the bottom as far as the notion of becoming a manager to outsourced labor, I'm doubtful there is enough management work to absorb an influx of former ICs.

a_imho 4y ago

You are assuming remote people are OK with being second or third class employees. I'm not sure how long this is going to be true in the post covid world. https://elsajohansson.wordpress.com/2017/09/13/what-does-a-wage-gap-look-like/ https://elsajohansson.wordpress.com/2017/09/13/what-does-a-w...

MontyCarloHall 4y ago
A compensation gap only matters if it also leads to a gap in living standards. Tech salaries in the US are fairly homogenous with respect to cost of living; a developer in Ohio making an Ohio-adjusted salary would be able to afford similar things as a developer in the Bay Area making a Bay Area salary. (In fact, I'd bet that the Ohioan would be able to afford a much nicer house; CoL does not scale uniformly across goods and services with respect to location.) However, tech salaries in the US are much higher than tech salaries in Europe even after adjusting for cost-of-living. That is what leads to resentment: a developer in London making a London salary would not be able to afford the same things as a developer in New York making a New York salary.
jollybean 4y ago
? Nothing I said about that assumed those employees would accept being 'second or third class employees'. They're going to be 'employees'. Now - they will be paid less - yes (maybe that's what you meant?) But that's a function of supply and demand. They will absolutely accept 'less' because it's where they sit on the supply/demand curve.
- a_imho 4y ago
  Discrimination is not a function of supply and demand, it is a function of lack of legal protection. One can argue underleveraged groups does not deserve equal treatment unless they can overpower their situation, but personally I disagree with that opinion. I also totally understand if someone feels their salary is under threat and does not want to treat others fairly due to that. To be completely honest, there is a nonzero chance I would do the same if I was on the good end of the deal as well. I'm not holding my breath over the situation changing in the near future, but 2 years of remote work do make people reconsider things.