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>Touching the circuit breaker handles on the service panel is a "competent adults, paying close attention, only at need" activity. Kindly screw off with the FU

>Touching the circuit breaker handles on the service panel is a "competent adults, paying close attention, only at need" activity. Kindly screw off with the FUD peddling. You should be able to flip breakers all you want without doing anything more than annoying people by interrupting whatever those breakers were powering. A breaker panel is designed so that you need to get out a screwdriver and remove fasteners to get near anything that might hurt you. Unless someone is actively working on a circuit <insert a bunch of low effort comments about the virtues of lock out tag out here> you shouldn't be able to hurt anyone or anything by flipping a breaker on or off. Breakers protect the wires. Devices are responsible for their own protection. Incomplete circuits get capped to prevent shorts to ground or elsewhere.

bell-cot 4y ago
At small scale, either living alone or with a few other responsible adults, you're pretty much correct. But you've never had grandkids who got interested in playing with the breaker panel, have you? Nor almost gotten yourself electrocuted, when you trusted a "not quite so sharp as they once were" older relative to turn off the specific 20A circuit that you were working on? Also worth noting - residential circuit breakers, even new (vs. decades-old plastic that's getting kinda brittle) are often rated for vastly fewer on/off cycles than even the crappiest old wall-mounted light switch.
- Ensorceled 4y ago
  I agree, kids and senile seniors should be kept away from the breaker panel. But that wasn't your original assertion, stop moving the goal posts.
- quesera 4y ago
  Well, if you're working on the wires, lightswitches can be just as dangerous as breaker panels. Don't ask incompetent electricians to help you with electrical work. Check!
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    > lightswitches can be just as dangerous as breaker panels That's very much not the case. A light switch, at least in the US, is just 120V. Sure, it could kill you, but 99.999% of the time it'll just annoy you if you touch the hot wire inadvertently. You can easily get 240V inside the panel, however, and on top of that you can easily get it at 200A. I'm a lot more careful when I've got the panel cover off for any reason.
    - quesera 4y ago
      OK, but no one is talking about working on the inside of panels. It's been clear throughout the thread, but yes -- don't open breaker panels and work on them casually. Flipping a breaker in a closed, code-compliant panel is exactly as safe as flipping a lightswitch in a closed, code-compliant wall box.
      - rootusrootus 4y ago
        > OK, but no one is talking about working on the inside of panels. I must have misunderstood, then -- you said light switch wiring is as dangerous as breakers, and breaker wiring can only be found inside the panel.
        quesera 4y ago
        It won't be particularly rewarding, but if you go back through the history you will see the full context. It involves the safety of requesting an inexperienced person to flip breakers.
        rootusrootus 4y ago
        Sure, I get that. But the wiring in a panel is just as hidden as the wiring of a light switch.
        quesera 4y ago
serf 4y ago
>A breaker panel is designed so that you need to get out a screwdriver and remove fasteners to get near anything that might hurt you. you hope. zinsco breaker panel boxes are still commonplace in the united states on older properties; they require no fasteners to open up and are (mostly) bussed in such a way that they're extraordinarily dangerous when open. Still, I agree with the spirit of your message -- but let's be clear, household electrics are dangerous, and not every breaker panel is going to be designed with safety in mind.
- quesera 4y ago
  Some Zinsco panels do require fasteners. The faultiness of Zinsco panels are not a special concern with flipping the breakers. They're just faulty. And you don't even need to open them to be dangerous, they have corrosion and heating problems. > not every breaker panel is going to be designed with safety in mind. Well, to be fair -- of course they were designed with safety in mind. They just failed. But yes, replace any Zinsco panels! Also some Federal Pacific and Challenger/GTE-Sylvania panels. This should be caught in a home inspect, and most home insurance companies will make it a requirement of coverage.
- galangalalgol 4y ago
  Two of the last three houses I've lived in had front panels that no longer fit, so you needed to take care when operating the breakers. In the older one, we tripped a breaker and about half the lights in the house went out. I went hunting for it and eventually went to flip off the main to start a more thorough check, only to find that is what had tripped, leaving half the house on... About half my 120 and all my 240 breakers were wired direct to the bus bypassing main. I'd love to hear a pro's stories. I bet they see really weird and terrible stuff.
  - quesera 4y ago
    FWIW: Poorly-fitting panel covers would never pass an inspection and are inherently dangerous. It's really important for the panel to be enclosed. Humidity, dust, vermin, and fingers get in. Sparks get out. Your home insurance would be worthless in case of a fire. Never mind the risk to irreplaceables. But re: tripping the main -- this is likely a fault in the breaker itself. It's not likely that a faulty line breaker allowed enough current to trip the mains breaker (though it does happen, but see below). Of course several overloaded lines can trip the mains, but this is exceedingly rare. A fault in the mains breaker is a serious problem for sure. However, unless you inspected the wiring yourself, I'd hesitate to assume that it was miswired as you describe. In standard US residential service, you get two 120V lines ("legs"). If the mains breaker failed, it's possible to lose one of those legs to the buss that supplies the line breakers (and the house fixtures), while the other leg stays up and powering the "other half" of the house. In this case, 240V appliances will appear to be "out" because they are only getting partial power (240V is really just two 120V services, 180degrees out of phase). So I'd guess the cause was a failed/fatigued mains breaker. That's a job for an electrician, regardless, who would surely notice miswiring if present, and the other code violations that you definitely had.

bell-cot 4y ago

At small scale, either living alone or with a few other responsible adults, you're pretty much correct. But you've never had grandkids who got interested in playing with the breaker panel, have you? Nor almost gotten yourself electrocuted, when you trusted a "not quite so sharp as they once were" older relative to turn off the specific 20A circuit that you were working on? Also worth noting - residential circuit breakers, even new (vs. decades-old plastic that's getting kinda brittle) are often rated for vastly fewer on/off cycles than even the crappiest old wall-mounted light switch.

Ensorceled 4y ago
I agree, kids and senile seniors should be kept away from the breaker panel. But that wasn't your original assertion, stop moving the goal posts.
quesera 4y ago
Well, if you're working on the wires, lightswitches can be just as dangerous as breaker panels. Don't ask incompetent electricians to help you with electrical work. Check!
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  > lightswitches can be just as dangerous as breaker panels That's very much not the case. A light switch, at least in the US, is just 120V. Sure, it could kill you, but 99.999% of the time it'll just annoy you if you touch the hot wire inadvertently. You can easily get 240V inside the panel, however, and on top of that you can easily get it at 200A. I'm a lot more careful when I've got the panel cover off for any reason.
  - quesera 4y ago
    OK, but no one is talking about working on the inside of panels. It's been clear throughout the thread, but yes -- don't open breaker panels and work on them casually. Flipping a breaker in a closed, code-compliant panel is exactly as safe as flipping a lightswitch in a closed, code-compliant wall box.
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      > OK, but no one is talking about working on the inside of panels. I must have misunderstood, then -- you said light switch wiring is as dangerous as breakers, and breaker wiring can only be found inside the panel.
      - quesera 4y ago
        It won't be particularly rewarding, but if you go back through the history you will see the full context. It involves the safety of requesting an inexperienced person to flip breakers.
        rootusrootus 4y ago
        Sure, I get that. But the wiring in a panel is just as hidden as the wiring of a light switch.
        quesera 4y ago

serf 4y ago

>A breaker panel is designed so that you need to get out a screwdriver and remove fasteners to get near anything that might hurt you. you hope. zinsco breaker panel boxes are still commonplace in the united states on older properties; they require no fasteners to open up and are (mostly) bussed in such a way that they're extraordinarily dangerous when open. Still, I agree with the spirit of your message -- but let's be clear, household electrics are dangerous, and not every breaker panel is going to be designed with safety in mind.

quesera 4y ago
Some Zinsco panels do require fasteners. The faultiness of Zinsco panels are not a special concern with flipping the breakers. They're just faulty. And you don't even need to open them to be dangerous, they have corrosion and heating problems. > not every breaker panel is going to be designed with safety in mind. Well, to be fair -- of course they were designed with safety in mind. They just failed. But yes, replace any Zinsco panels! Also some Federal Pacific and Challenger/GTE-Sylvania panels. This should be caught in a home inspect, and most home insurance companies will make it a requirement of coverage.
galangalalgol 4y ago
Two of the last three houses I've lived in had front panels that no longer fit, so you needed to take care when operating the breakers. In the older one, we tripped a breaker and about half the lights in the house went out. I went hunting for it and eventually went to flip off the main to start a more thorough check, only to find that is what had tripped, leaving half the house on... About half my 120 and all my 240 breakers were wired direct to the bus bypassing main. I'd love to hear a pro's stories. I bet they see really weird and terrible stuff.
- quesera 4y ago
  FWIW: Poorly-fitting panel covers would never pass an inspection and are inherently dangerous. It's really important for the panel to be enclosed. Humidity, dust, vermin, and fingers get in. Sparks get out. Your home insurance would be worthless in case of a fire. Never mind the risk to irreplaceables. But re: tripping the main -- this is likely a fault in the breaker itself. It's not likely that a faulty line breaker allowed enough current to trip the mains breaker (though it does happen, but see below). Of course several overloaded lines can trip the mains, but this is exceedingly rare. A fault in the mains breaker is a serious problem for sure. However, unless you inspected the wiring yourself, I'd hesitate to assume that it was miswired as you describe. In standard US residential service, you get two 120V lines ("legs"). If the mains breaker failed, it's possible to lose one of those legs to the buss that supplies the line breakers (and the house fixtures), while the other leg stays up and powering the "other half" of the house. In this case, 240V appliances will appear to be "out" because they are only getting partial power (240V is really just two 120V services, 180degrees out of phase). So I'd guess the cause was a failed/fatigued mains breaker. That's a job for an electrician, regardless, who would surely notice miswiring if present, and the other code violations that you definitely had.