6 ms·

I always get discouraged by the fact that I'd have to buy-in to the Lisp language to even get going with Emacs. It just doesn't compete with the ease-of-use of

by oxff 4y ago

I always get discouraged by the fact that I'd have to buy-in to the Lisp language to even get going with Emacs. It just doesn't compete with the ease-of-use of data / declarative configuration of VSCode's JSON approach, plus it takes me trivial amount of time to have, say, Node development environment running inside a container with VSCode. I don't even know if you can do that with Emacs to begin with.

BeetleB 4y ago
> I always get discouraged by the fact that I'd have to buy-in to the Lisp language to even get going with Emacs. You can't be further from the truth. I was a power Emacs user for almost a decade with virtually no Elisp knowledge. I could set variables, but as an example, couldn't write a loop or function. Of course, once you know elisp, you'll find excuses to use it.
- anthk 4y ago
  Emacs comes with an elisp guide I think. https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/eintr/index.html https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/eintr/in...
midislack 4y ago
You can learn enough lisp to get started in fifteen minutes if you already know some other computer programming language.
froh 4y ago
Do you mean "remote development", ssh/scp-ing with the container? I did remote development with emacs in the late 1990s so slightly I'm confused what you consider so special about working with containers?
- heywoodlh 4y ago
  > Do you mean "remote development", ssh/scp-ing with the container? I think they are referring to the integration of VSCode with Docker. I.E. build, deploy and run your project in a clean container environment quickly using a workflow that is intuitive to VSCode users. That being said, I know for me it would be fairly trivial to workout this same type of integration for myself with Vim. Although I am not an Emacs user I am positive it wouldn't be difficult to do something similar. I don't really see this as a feature I would ever care to implement or find important for myself. EDIT: to be clear, I am a Vim user and do not find VSCode intuitive at all -- but I have seen how it seems to really work well for a lot of people
  - morelisp 4y ago
    Emacs uses the same mechanism to work inside a container as it does to work over SSH, which is also the same mechanism it uses to work as a different user on the same machine, and pretty much anything you can get something FS/shell-like on. Multiple container runtimes, k8s clusters, git repositories, etc. It's essentially a full VFS layer, although (like most VFS layers) it's clunky if you try to compose certain things. E.g. remote debugging isn't going to work on your HDFS cluster... https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/tramp/index.html https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/tramp/in... https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/tramp/Customizing-Methods.html https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/tramp/Cu...
    - ParetoOptimal 4y ago
      I posted how to do it without ssh using docker-tramp elsewhere in thread FYI.
grumpyprole 4y ago
The average Emacs user writes occasional lisp to customise its behaviour. I don't know any VS Code user that writes JavaScript to customise it. VS Code obviously does have larger mindshare and that does bring some very polished commercial plugins.
- bryanrasmussen 4y ago
  I did write some brackets customization, but then I went to VS Code because of performance issues and figured, damn, I'll just stick with the default.
baby 4y ago
That's one of my issue with OCaml as well. All the config is using some made-up language that looks like lisp (with no extension file)
eadmund 4y ago
> It just doesn't compete with the ease-of-use of data / declarative configuration of VSCode's JSON approach What‽ S-expressions are head-and-shoulders better at declarative configuration than JSON. Compare these two options (the JSON is from https://cloud.google.com/appengine/docs/admin-api/creating-config-files https://cloud.google.com/appengine/docs/admin-api/creating-c...): { "deployment": { "files": { "example-resource-file1": { "sourceUrl": "https://storage.googleapis.com/[MY_BUCKET_ID]/example-application/example-resource-file1" }, "images/example-resource-file2": { "sourceUrl": "https://storage.googleapis.com/[MY_BUCKET_ID]/example-application/images/example-resource-file2" }, } }, "id": "v1", "handlers": [ { "urlRegex": "/.*", "script": { "scriptPath": "example-python-app.py" } }, ], "runtime": "python27", "threadsafe": true, } vs. (app (deployment (files (example-resource-file-1 "https://storage.googleapis.com/[MY_BUCKET_ID]/example-application/example-resource-file1") (images/example-resource-file2 "https://storage.googleapis.com/[MY_BUCKET_ID]/example-application/images/example-resource-file2"))) (id v1) (handlers ("/.*" (script "example-python-app.py"))) (runtime python27) (threadsafe true)) And that's just a naïve translation — a more diligent reinterpretation would be even better. Still, even the relatively-thoughtless translation is demonstrably better, easier to grok and think about.
- oxff 4y ago
  I might just be legitimately stupid. I find the JSON immediately readable.
  - ParetoOptimal 4y ago
    Its just familiarity. Given equal experience with reading json data and lisp data you'd almost certainly prefer the much shorter (but lossless) lisp data.
ParetoOptimal 4y ago
> to buy-in to the Lisp language to even get going with Emacs. It just doesn't compete with the ease-of-use of data / declarative configuration of VSCode's JSON approach, hmm... do you know about M-x customize ? > Node development environment running inside a container with VSCode. I don't even know if you can do that with Emacs to begin with. Install docker-tramp.el and then `C-x C-f /docker:image_name: RET` to open a dired buffer in the container. `M-x shell RET` for a shell in container. Use this often? Make a bookmark with `C-x r m bookmark name RET`, then next time get to it from your bookmark list accessible with `C-x r b`.
patrick451 4y ago
I guess this just all opinion on both sides here, but personally I find the declarative JSON approach to a huge turn-off. I dislike json for anything I have to write and maintain manually. And I find most anything declarative to be rather miserable. Sooner or later, you want some kind of logic, so end up with these bizantine DSLs where doing something as basic as a conditional feels like putting a man on the moon. From terraform's HCL to ROS launch files, I have yet to meet a declarative framework that actually makes sense.

by oxff 4y ago

BeetleB 4y ago

> I always get discouraged by the fact that I'd have to buy-in to the Lisp language to even get going with Emacs. You can't be further from the truth. I was a power Emacs user for almost a decade with virtually no Elisp knowledge. I could set variables, but as an example, couldn't write a loop or function. Of course, once you know elisp, you'll find excuses to use it.

anthk 4y ago
Emacs comes with an elisp guide I think. https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/eintr/index.html https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/eintr/in...

midislack 4y ago

You can learn enough lisp to get started in fifteen minutes if you already know some other computer programming language.

froh 4y ago

Do you mean "remote development", ssh/scp-ing with the container? I did remote development with emacs in the late 1990s so slightly I'm confused what you consider so special about working with containers?

heywoodlh 4y ago
> Do you mean "remote development", ssh/scp-ing with the container? I think they are referring to the integration of VSCode with Docker. I.E. build, deploy and run your project in a clean container environment quickly using a workflow that is intuitive to VSCode users. That being said, I know for me it would be fairly trivial to workout this same type of integration for myself with Vim. Although I am not an Emacs user I am positive it wouldn't be difficult to do something similar. I don't really see this as a feature I would ever care to implement or find important for myself. EDIT: to be clear, I am a Vim user and do not find VSCode intuitive at all -- but I have seen how it seems to really work well for a lot of people
- morelisp 4y ago
  Emacs uses the same mechanism to work inside a container as it does to work over SSH, which is also the same mechanism it uses to work as a different user on the same machine, and pretty much anything you can get something FS/shell-like on. Multiple container runtimes, k8s clusters, git repositories, etc. It's essentially a full VFS layer, although (like most VFS layers) it's clunky if you try to compose certain things. E.g. remote debugging isn't going to work on your HDFS cluster... https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/tramp/index.html https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/tramp/in... https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/tramp/Customizing-Methods.html https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/tramp/Cu...
  - ParetoOptimal 4y ago
    I posted how to do it without ssh using docker-tramp elsewhere in thread FYI.

grumpyprole 4y ago

The average Emacs user writes occasional lisp to customise its behaviour. I don't know any VS Code user that writes JavaScript to customise it. VS Code obviously does have larger mindshare and that does bring some very polished commercial plugins.

bryanrasmussen 4y ago
I did write some brackets customization, but then I went to VS Code because of performance issues and figured, damn, I'll just stick with the default.

baby 4y ago

That's one of my issue with OCaml as well. All the config is using some made-up language that looks like lisp (with no extension file)

eadmund 4y ago

> It just doesn't compete with the ease-of-use of data / declarative configuration of VSCode's JSON approach What‽ S-expressions are head-and-shoulders better at declarative configuration than JSON. Compare these two options (the JSON is from https://cloud.google.com/appengine/docs/admin-api/creating-config-files https://cloud.google.com/appengine/docs/admin-api/creating-c...): { "deployment": { "files": { "example-resource-file1": { "sourceUrl": "https://storage.googleapis.com/[MY_BUCKET_ID]/example-application/example-resource-file1" }, "images/example-resource-file2": { "sourceUrl": "https://storage.googleapis.com/[MY_BUCKET_ID]/example-application/images/example-resource-file2" }, } }, "id": "v1", "handlers": [ { "urlRegex": "/.*", "script": { "scriptPath": "example-python-app.py" } }, ], "runtime": "python27", "threadsafe": true, } vs. (app (deployment (files (example-resource-file-1 "https://storage.googleapis.com/[MY_BUCKET_ID]/example-application/example-resource-file1") (images/example-resource-file2 "https://storage.googleapis.com/[MY_BUCKET_ID]/example-application/images/example-resource-file2"))) (id v1) (handlers ("/.*" (script "example-python-app.py"))) (runtime python27) (threadsafe true)) And that's just a naïve translation — a more diligent reinterpretation would be even better. Still, even the relatively-thoughtless translation is demonstrably better, easier to grok and think about.

oxff 4y ago
I might just be legitimately stupid. I find the JSON immediately readable.
- ParetoOptimal 4y ago
  Its just familiarity. Given equal experience with reading json data and lisp data you'd almost certainly prefer the much shorter (but lossless) lisp data.

ParetoOptimal 4y ago

> to buy-in to the Lisp language to even get going with Emacs. It just doesn't compete with the ease-of-use of data / declarative configuration of VSCode's JSON approach, hmm... do you know about M-x customize ? > Node development environment running inside a container with VSCode. I don't even know if you can do that with Emacs to begin with. Install docker-tramp.el and then `C-x C-f /docker:image_name: RET` to open a dired buffer in the container. `M-x shell RET` for a shell in container. Use this often? Make a bookmark with `C-x r m bookmark name RET`, then next time get to it from your bookmark list accessible with `C-x r b`.

patrick451 4y ago

I guess this just all opinion on both sides here, but personally I find the declarative JSON approach to a huge turn-off. I dislike json for anything I have to write and maintain manually. And I find most anything declarative to be rather miserable. Sooner or later, you want some kind of logic, so end up with these bizantine DSLs where doing something as basic as a conditional feels like putting a man on the moon. From terraform's HCL to ROS launch files, I have yet to meet a declarative framework that actually makes sense.