4 ms·

Is there a context from which Emacs' defaults are bad, other than "Windows did it differently!" ? I'm asking because I learned its defaults before windows had

Is there a context from which Emacs' defaults are bad, other than "Windows did it differently!" ? I'm asking because I learned its defaults before windows had the market prevalence that it does, and it just doesn't seem all that different from an outside perspective. I think the term 'grognard' is not helpful to your case. When I read it I find myself assuming that you're dismissing the experiences of people whose context starts before yours. You might prefer to give a different impression.

JasonFruit 4y ago
I think it's perfect: soldiers of the old guard. I think many of us who love Emacs fall into that category.
na85 4y ago
>Is there a context from which Emacs' defaults are bad, other than "Windows did it differently!" ? There are dozens of low hanging fruit. Off the top of my head: - dispensing with the absurd references to Alt as Meta that haven't been relevant for 35 years - bringing the terminology in the documentation into the 2000s by fixing what's called window, a pane, etc. - including CUA mode as default for ease of onboarding windows users - including per-pixel/smooth scrolling which AFAICT is only available via the emacs-mac port - updating the graphical interface to make it look modern and sophisticated instead of the current look which can best be described as "abandonware chic" - improving handling of large files with long lines so the editor doesn't choke - setting the gc threshold to a much higher value - the yes/no vs y/n thing that literally everyone rebinds - make middle click insert at the cursor instead of where the mouse is I'm certain there are dozens of others.
- amake 4y ago
  > - including per-pixel/smooth scrolling which AFAICT is only available via the emacs-mac port The master branch (Emacs 29) has this in `pixel-scroll-precision-mode` and it seems to perform better than the emacs-mac implementation.
- JasonFruit 4y ago
  I anticipated being able to agree with you more than I do. Long lines, GC, yes, the rest, no.
  - na85 4y ago
    By your own statement in another comment you "think it's perfect". It would seem you and I have very little common ground.
    - JasonFruit 4y ago
      I meant the word 'grognard'. Many of us are greybeards still fighting the last war.
- gpderetta 4y ago
  The problem with changing the wondow/pane nomenclature is that it is tied with the naming of many elisp functions. Changing the first without the others would be confusing and changing the elisp functions is going to pointlessly break compatibility with thousands of scripts.
- iib 4y ago
  - The Meta key was surprisingly a nice thing as I moved to a macbook, as I already didn't think of an Alt as Alt, but I agree, it should be changed. - Richard Stallman was actually ok with this change, he said that it should take a couple of releases so that users don't get confused, but he was in principle ok with it. - This will be very hard to change, for two reasons: Emacs is older than these conventions, and the mailing list argument was that it is not the fault of Emacs that CUA was a mistake, as it didn't follow earlier conventions that Emacs did. The second reason is that Emacs is primarily a bridge from Windows to GNU, so GNU users will be treated with priority. - This is solved in emacs-29, and it works quite nicely. - This is in the works, but it is hard work, see the pgtk branch. - There are elpa packages for these, like vlf, but I agree it should be more of a priority in core Emacs. I think there are always efforts to improve these as well. - Perhaps, they have been conservative with these values. - I think there is also a mode for that, but it should be done in core. I think one of the arguments here was that sometimes, it is better to make the user type "yes" instead of "y", for more critical actions. - I have no comment on this one, but I would add the ability to scroll without the point--cursor--following me around. The main problem, as they often mention on the mailing list, is that the manpower is low. There is no reason they don't want to solve the large technical problems, like very large files.
bananamerica 4y ago
The default keybindings are hard on your fingers.
- spacexsucks 4y ago
  All i had to do was rebind caps to ctrl. Easiest keybindings ever
  - bananamerica 4y ago
    Sure that helps. But on Emacs everything is a chord, some quite awkward, and sometimes you have two or three chords in sequence. I don't like bending my fingers, so I use Doom Emacs for Evil.
    - AlbertoGP 4y ago
      Exactly, those defaults are a disgrace and also are surprisingly difficult to change, particularly when the action includes a mini-mode with its own key bindings so you remap a key, but then it still does not work after the first key press. Yes, you can find all the variables you need to change to remap a specific key but it wastes way more time than it should. I guess most people know by now, but Emacs’ keybindings were designed for a specific keyboard that had way more keys that usual: https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/495/what-do-the-keys-on-this-symbolics-space-cadet-keyboard-do https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/495/what-... As Emacs was ported, they replaced dedicated keys with chords and sequences and we ended up in this mess, instead of at some point doing a full review of the default keybindings to match the input devices we actually have, merging in the conventions that had developed in the meantime. After three decades of use, I have internalized those defaults because I keep having to use Emacs in its default configuration from time to time, have remapped many keys in my workstation, bound custom functions and all that. It’s still a paper cut, and also prevents me from recommending Emacs to more casual users.
    - cyberbanjo 4y ago
      To prevent chords use sticky keys https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/StickyModifiers https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/StickyModifiers
slightwinder 4y ago
> Is there a context from which Emacs' defaults are bad, other than "Windows did it differently!" ? Being different too much can be bad too. Emacs has not much big fails, but many small things which lead to being bad by thousand little cuts. > When I read it I find myself assuming that you're dismissing the experiences of people whose context starts before yours. Why does it matter? Nobody want's to take your emacs from you. The discussion is always about bringing in new people, and why people leave emacs. And that emacs has a problem with this is not new. Emacs is always swinging between hype and death, and it's not like this has become much better over time.
- patrick451 4y ago
  We should also make vim non-modal by default. Pressing characters and not getting output? Now __that__ is weird. I can't believe anybody new even tries it.
  - slightwinder 4y ago
    Modal-modes are beneficial. But Emacs differences are mostly just different, not beneficial. And it's not as if vim and it's forks are not being modernized...

JasonFruit 4y ago

I think it's perfect: soldiers of the old guard. I think many of us who love Emacs fall into that category.

na85 4y ago

>Is there a context from which Emacs' defaults are bad, other than "Windows did it differently!" ? There are dozens of low hanging fruit. Off the top of my head: - dispensing with the absurd references to Alt as Meta that haven't been relevant for 35 years - bringing the terminology in the documentation into the 2000s by fixing what's called window, a pane, etc. - including CUA mode as default for ease of onboarding windows users - including per-pixel/smooth scrolling which AFAICT is only available via the emacs-mac port - updating the graphical interface to make it look modern and sophisticated instead of the current look which can best be described as "abandonware chic" - improving handling of large files with long lines so the editor doesn't choke - setting the gc threshold to a much higher value - the yes/no vs y/n thing that literally everyone rebinds - make middle click insert at the cursor instead of where the mouse is I'm certain there are dozens of others.

amake 4y ago
> - including per-pixel/smooth scrolling which AFAICT is only available via the emacs-mac port The master branch (Emacs 29) has this in `pixel-scroll-precision-mode` and it seems to perform better than the emacs-mac implementation.
JasonFruit 4y ago
I anticipated being able to agree with you more than I do. Long lines, GC, yes, the rest, no.
- na85 4y ago
  By your own statement in another comment you "think it's perfect". It would seem you and I have very little common ground.
  - JasonFruit 4y ago
    I meant the word 'grognard'. Many of us are greybeards still fighting the last war.
gpderetta 4y ago
The problem with changing the wondow/pane nomenclature is that it is tied with the naming of many elisp functions. Changing the first without the others would be confusing and changing the elisp functions is going to pointlessly break compatibility with thousands of scripts.
iib 4y ago
- The Meta key was surprisingly a nice thing as I moved to a macbook, as I already didn't think of an Alt as Alt, but I agree, it should be changed. - Richard Stallman was actually ok with this change, he said that it should take a couple of releases so that users don't get confused, but he was in principle ok with it. - This will be very hard to change, for two reasons: Emacs is older than these conventions, and the mailing list argument was that it is not the fault of Emacs that CUA was a mistake, as it didn't follow earlier conventions that Emacs did. The second reason is that Emacs is primarily a bridge from Windows to GNU, so GNU users will be treated with priority. - This is solved in emacs-29, and it works quite nicely. - This is in the works, but it is hard work, see the pgtk branch. - There are elpa packages for these, like vlf, but I agree it should be more of a priority in core Emacs. I think there are always efforts to improve these as well. - Perhaps, they have been conservative with these values. - I think there is also a mode for that, but it should be done in core. I think one of the arguments here was that sometimes, it is better to make the user type "yes" instead of "y", for more critical actions. - I have no comment on this one, but I would add the ability to scroll without the point--cursor--following me around. The main problem, as they often mention on the mailing list, is that the manpower is low. There is no reason they don't want to solve the large technical problems, like very large files.

bananamerica 4y ago

The default keybindings are hard on your fingers.

spacexsucks 4y ago
All i had to do was rebind caps to ctrl. Easiest keybindings ever
- bananamerica 4y ago
  Sure that helps. But on Emacs everything is a chord, some quite awkward, and sometimes you have two or three chords in sequence. I don't like bending my fingers, so I use Doom Emacs for Evil.
  - AlbertoGP 4y ago
    Exactly, those defaults are a disgrace and also are surprisingly difficult to change, particularly when the action includes a mini-mode with its own key bindings so you remap a key, but then it still does not work after the first key press. Yes, you can find all the variables you need to change to remap a specific key but it wastes way more time than it should. I guess most people know by now, but Emacs’ keybindings were designed for a specific keyboard that had way more keys that usual: https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/495/what-do-the-keys-on-this-symbolics-space-cadet-keyboard-do https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/495/what-... As Emacs was ported, they replaced dedicated keys with chords and sequences and we ended up in this mess, instead of at some point doing a full review of the default keybindings to match the input devices we actually have, merging in the conventions that had developed in the meantime. After three decades of use, I have internalized those defaults because I keep having to use Emacs in its default configuration from time to time, have remapped many keys in my workstation, bound custom functions and all that. It’s still a paper cut, and also prevents me from recommending Emacs to more casual users.
  - cyberbanjo 4y ago
    To prevent chords use sticky keys https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/StickyModifiers https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/StickyModifiers

slightwinder 4y ago

> Is there a context from which Emacs' defaults are bad, other than "Windows did it differently!" ? Being different too much can be bad too. Emacs has not much big fails, but many small things which lead to being bad by thousand little cuts. > When I read it I find myself assuming that you're dismissing the experiences of people whose context starts before yours. Why does it matter? Nobody want's to take your emacs from you. The discussion is always about bringing in new people, and why people leave emacs. And that emacs has a problem with this is not new. Emacs is always swinging between hype and death, and it's not like this has become much better over time.

patrick451 4y ago
We should also make vim non-modal by default. Pressing characters and not getting output? Now __that__ is weird. I can't believe anybody new even tries it.
- slightwinder 4y ago
  Modal-modes are beneficial. But Emacs differences are mostly just different, not beneficial. And it's not as if vim and it's forks are not being modernized...