4 ms·

>Hmm. Could it be that you're... overestimating? As I said... wilfred social science... Here's a nice visual graph that I like: https://www.pewresearch.org/fa

>Hmm. Could it be that you're... overestimating? As I said... wilfred social science... Here's a nice visual graph that I like: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/06/12/7-things-to-know-about-polarization-in-america/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/06/12/7-things-to... Go put your finger on the republican line and see where it moves. There has been analysis done by many groups which have confirmed where the political polarization derived heavily starting with gay rights. The republicans who had 'closeted' homosexuals moved left. Trump literally started a fight with russia and the middle east trying to benefit homosexuals. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/trump-administration-launches-global-effort-end-criminalization-homosexuality-n973081 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/trump-adm... The republicans clearly moved left and it was the right thing to do. Whereas Truman != Obama. It's rather easy to objectively see both parties have moved left. I feel like this is rather objective fact. The better discussion, why is this the case? Is it perhaps where the democrats have gone is the right place both parties eventually end up? Or are we about to watch 2nd civil war?

mikkergp 4y ago
I do think that people are so busy being mad about the "Democrats have moved too far left" meme that they haven't really thought about it. The problem being the definition of "too far left". But yeah, I think they've moved to the left because human rights are important. It would be interesting to go back to Women's suffrage because I'm sure people were having the same discussion. Liberals have moved left while Republicans have stayed where they are. But of course, moving to the left on equal rights for women is not liberals moving too far to the left. It's society course correcting. You don't get to say "Well liberals got women's rights so we get ____" But too many Republicans are saying the equivalent of that (hell some Republicans do https://www.news-leader.com/story/news/politics/2021/10/22/ann-coulter-says-women-shouldnt-have-right-vote-19th-amendment-missouri-state-university/8528256002/ https://www.news-leader.com/story/news/politics/2021/10/22/a... say exactly that.) Human rights can't be a partisan consideration. It can't be something we compromise over. We just have to evolve as a society, get over it and instead have substantive conversations about the policies that move the needle in people's lives.
- boredumb 4y ago
  The left doesn't equal human rights, it means more government intervention and currently it means using and abusing small portions of society under the guise of human rights and social justice as a false pretense to expand government control. Liberals have also not 'moved left', the democratic party has abandoned liberals in lieu of progressives, socialists and other people who believe in a more involved government instead of individual liberties in order to garner more votes and retain their districts.
  - klyrs 4y ago
    > The left doesn't equal human rights, it means more government intervention Really? Does "legalize abortion" mean more government intervention? Does "abolish the police" mean more government intervention?
    - boredumb 4y ago
      It was actually "replace the police with herds of social (government) workers" and the governments ability to allow people to kill unborn kids in order to lessen government burden by eliminating under privileged classes.
      - klyrs 4y ago
        Well, that certainly is a massive dollop of contempt.
      - antifa 4y ago
        How dare the left want to replace armed officers executing black people in the streets with therapists and social workers!
  - mikkergp 4y ago
    I'm pretty sure the point of my comment was the opposite of "left equals human rights".
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
> Go put your finger on the republican line and see where it moves This ignores massive societal shilf we've had - which is erosion of worker's rights. The 'left' used to mean worker's rights, helping the poor, maybe socialism or welfare. Now you have folks who see themselves as left because they suport trans right, but their solution to 'No parental leave in America' is 'more freee market'
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  And the left could have had it all. They could have built a coalition of common cause between trans rights and workers rights, with a common philosophical underpinning. Instead, they've shifted to look down on blue-collar workers as "a basket of deplorables". Contempt for your constituency is not how you build a winning coalition.
  - lapcat 4y ago
    > And the left could have had it all. They could have built a coalition of common cause between trans rights and workers rights, with a common philosophical underpinning. Instead, they've shifted to look down on blue-collar workers as "a basket of deplorables". Is this actually "the left" though? The same people who came up with the insult "basket of deplorables" also came up with the insult "Bernie bros". Seriously, if the left means Hillary Clinton and does not mean Bernie Sanders, then we might as well just throw all political labels in the trash.
    - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
      Fair point, but... Is there any significant politician on the left, other than Bernie Sanders, who is actually pro-working-class at the moment? If so, I haven't paid enough attention to politics to keep track of what's going on. But if not, then I think it's fair to say that the left as a whole abandoned the working class, with Bernie being the exception.
      - lapcat 4y ago
lapcat 5y ago
> As I said... wilfred social science... I don't know what the point is supposed to be here. > Here's a nice visual graph that I like: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/06/12/7-things-to https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/06/12/7-things-to... > Go put your finger on the republican line and see where it moves. Ok. I downloaded the gif and went through it frame by frame. What it shows is that the Median Democrat stayed exactly the same during 1998-2011, while the Median Republican moved right the whole period of 2004-2011. Anyway, this story is from 2014, so it's missing the last 8 years.
- Izkata 4y ago
  > What it shows is that the Median Democrat stayed exactly the same during 1998-2011, while the Median Republican moved right the whole period of 2004-2011. Now try doing the whole span it's depicting, instead of picking the best years for your viewpoint. > Anyway, this story is from 2014, so it's missing the last 8 years. Here's an update that includes 2015 and 2017: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/interactives/political-polarization-1994-2017/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/interactives/political-... It continues the same trend of median Republican barely moving while come 2017 median Democrat flies off even further left.
  - lapcat 4y ago
    > Now try doing the whole span it's depicting, instead of picking the best years for your viewpoint. What do you think is my viewpoint? During 1994-1997, both parties were moving left. And during 2012-2014 they were moving in opposite directions. I focused on the period of 1998-2011 because that seemed to be when there was the biggest difference in behavior between the 2 parties. The claim of incomingpain was that "the democrats moved far left creating the polarization". But this is not supported by the given data. The parties were moving in lockstep prior to 1998, and the Democrats didn't move at all for many years after 1998. It seems difficult to argue that the polarization was created in 2017, given the data from 1998-2011. Anyway, incomingpain, the one who made the claim, was also the one who linked to the pre-2015 data. Here's the funny thing: incomingpain said "The republicans clearly moved left and it was the right thing to do." And Republicans did indeed move left 1994-2003... but then they moved back right starting in 2004. They moved right at the same time that Democrats were staying the same. So shouldn't incomingpain argue that backtracking was the wrong thing to do, if moving left was the right thing to do?

mikkergp 4y ago

I do think that people are so busy being mad about the "Democrats have moved too far left" meme that they haven't really thought about it. The problem being the definition of "too far left". But yeah, I think they've moved to the left because human rights are important. It would be interesting to go back to Women's suffrage because I'm sure people were having the same discussion. Liberals have moved left while Republicans have stayed where they are. But of course, moving to the left on equal rights for women is not liberals moving too far to the left. It's society course correcting. You don't get to say "Well liberals got women's rights so we get ____" But too many Republicans are saying the equivalent of that (hell some Republicans do https://www.news-leader.com/story/news/politics/2021/10/22/ann-coulter-says-women-shouldnt-have-right-vote-19th-amendment-missouri-state-university/8528256002/ https://www.news-leader.com/story/news/politics/2021/10/22/a... say exactly that.) Human rights can't be a partisan consideration. It can't be something we compromise over. We just have to evolve as a society, get over it and instead have substantive conversations about the policies that move the needle in people's lives.

boredumb 4y ago
The left doesn't equal human rights, it means more government intervention and currently it means using and abusing small portions of society under the guise of human rights and social justice as a false pretense to expand government control. Liberals have also not 'moved left', the democratic party has abandoned liberals in lieu of progressives, socialists and other people who believe in a more involved government instead of individual liberties in order to garner more votes and retain their districts.
- klyrs 4y ago
  > The left doesn't equal human rights, it means more government intervention Really? Does "legalize abortion" mean more government intervention? Does "abolish the police" mean more government intervention?
  - boredumb 4y ago
    It was actually "replace the police with herds of social (government) workers" and the governments ability to allow people to kill unborn kids in order to lessen government burden by eliminating under privileged classes.
    - klyrs 4y ago
      Well, that certainly is a massive dollop of contempt.
    - antifa 4y ago
      How dare the left want to replace armed officers executing black people in the streets with therapists and social workers!
- mikkergp 4y ago
  I'm pretty sure the point of my comment was the opposite of "left equals human rights".

ClumsyPilot 4y ago

> Go put your finger on the republican line and see where it moves This ignores massive societal shilf we've had - which is erosion of worker's rights. The 'left' used to mean worker's rights, helping the poor, maybe socialism or welfare. Now you have folks who see themselves as left because they suport trans right, but their solution to 'No parental leave in America' is 'more freee market'

AnimalMuppet 4y ago
And the left could have had it all. They could have built a coalition of common cause between trans rights and workers rights, with a common philosophical underpinning. Instead, they've shifted to look down on blue-collar workers as "a basket of deplorables". Contempt for your constituency is not how you build a winning coalition.
- lapcat 4y ago
  > And the left could have had it all. They could have built a coalition of common cause between trans rights and workers rights, with a common philosophical underpinning. Instead, they've shifted to look down on blue-collar workers as "a basket of deplorables". Is this actually "the left" though? The same people who came up with the insult "basket of deplorables" also came up with the insult "Bernie bros". Seriously, if the left means Hillary Clinton and does not mean Bernie Sanders, then we might as well just throw all political labels in the trash.
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    Fair point, but... Is there any significant politician on the left, other than Bernie Sanders, who is actually pro-working-class at the moment? If so, I haven't paid enough attention to politics to keep track of what's going on. But if not, then I think it's fair to say that the left as a whole abandoned the working class, with Bernie being the exception.
    - lapcat 4y ago

lapcat 5y ago

> As I said... wilfred social science... I don't know what the point is supposed to be here. > Here's a nice visual graph that I like: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/06/12/7-things-to https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/06/12/7-things-to... > Go put your finger on the republican line and see where it moves. Ok. I downloaded the gif and went through it frame by frame. What it shows is that the Median Democrat stayed exactly the same during 1998-2011, while the Median Republican moved right the whole period of 2004-2011. Anyway, this story is from 2014, so it's missing the last 8 years.

Izkata 4y ago
> What it shows is that the Median Democrat stayed exactly the same during 1998-2011, while the Median Republican moved right the whole period of 2004-2011. Now try doing the whole span it's depicting, instead of picking the best years for your viewpoint. > Anyway, this story is from 2014, so it's missing the last 8 years. Here's an update that includes 2015 and 2017: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/interactives/political-polarization-1994-2017/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/interactives/political-... It continues the same trend of median Republican barely moving while come 2017 median Democrat flies off even further left.
- lapcat 4y ago
  > Now try doing the whole span it's depicting, instead of picking the best years for your viewpoint. What do you think is my viewpoint? During 1994-1997, both parties were moving left. And during 2012-2014 they were moving in opposite directions. I focused on the period of 1998-2011 because that seemed to be when there was the biggest difference in behavior between the 2 parties. The claim of incomingpain was that "the democrats moved far left creating the polarization". But this is not supported by the given data. The parties were moving in lockstep prior to 1998, and the Democrats didn't move at all for many years after 1998. It seems difficult to argue that the polarization was created in 2017, given the data from 1998-2011. Anyway, incomingpain, the one who made the claim, was also the one who linked to the pre-2015 data. Here's the funny thing: incomingpain said "The republicans clearly moved left and it was the right thing to do." And Republicans did indeed move left 1994-2003... but then they moved back right starting in 2004. They moved right at the same time that Democrats were staying the same. So shouldn't incomingpain argue that backtracking was the wrong thing to do, if moving left was the right thing to do?