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I basically operate within small to medium size business as sales in California. Every business owner I know took/got so much PPP money they flat out feel guilt

I basically operate within small to medium size business as sales in California. Every business owner I know took/got so much PPP money they flat out feel guilty but at the same time all they did was take what was being offered. It's probably the most internally rage inducing thing I've ever heard of, but Im so used to faking agreement to keep the sales relationship alive I basically can block it out. Money is sales feels like fake money anyway so I can cope. But I think if any hard working people really found out what happened they'd almost go French revolution on government.

ryandvm 4y ago
Not taking PPP money that your business is eligible for is akin to paying more taxes than you're required. Maybe it's honorable in some strange way, but it's certainly not rational.
- somethoughts 4y ago
  In my humble opinion - this is a great insight on both paying your fair share and not taking PPP/social security/unemployment even if you technically can but don't actually need it. It should be lauded more even though it probably will never be.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    I don't know why we would have debates on whether we should "laud" things or not. How about regulating things, rather than having debates about who or what should be praised? Companies aren't dogs or children. I personally get very little from either the praise or condemnation of anonymous strangers. Not really directed at you, I'm just sick of the idea that if we all get together and declare things good or bad, that's some sort of accomplishment. People who do well do well through ignoring the irrelevant and immaterial comments of busybodies and bikeshedders.
    - WastingMyTime89 4y ago
      Moral exists and you can aim for a virtuous life in an Aristotelian way and are free to think people who strive for that should be admired. I am at this point in my life of an opinion opposite to yours. What people do is not neutral and people who abuse system or knowingly profit from harmful systems have a negative impact on our society as a whole and it is legitimate to see their actions as bad.
      - xvector 4y ago
        I'm struggling with this personally as I decide whether or not to work for unethical companies in exchange for life-changing compensation. Overall I think my suffering-footprint is tiny compared to most so maybe I'm okay with being a bit more unethical in some areas of my life. But I'm unsure.
    - somethoughts 4y ago
      Agree - ideally it would be better if everyone just did their own thing and was valued by society for their contribution. The comment is much more as a counterpoint to the existing dogma of valuing an individual's contribution to society primarily based on ability to amass capital (i.e. splashy magazine covers based on net worth - which often translates to percentage ownership of a company valued on the price paid by the last marginal buyer).
  - alliao 4y ago
    there's nothing fair, gov policies are created to stimulate economy, and that literally means people should go get it and spend it. stashing it in overseas safe haven is less ideal than say spend it all
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- bbarn 4y ago
  At the time, it also wouldn't have been wise because none of us had any clue what was going to happen long term. If you'd taken that money, paid your short term shortages with it, and held on to your reserves you could have been spending instead, you'd be in a better position later if things kept going badly.
Melting_Harps 4y ago
> But I think if any hard working people really found out what happened they'd almost go French revolution on government. I can't speak for everyone, but I have simply decided to opt-out wherever possible; I'm not going to fight against a system that has moated itself out of obsolescence. If startup culture has taught me anything it's been to learn when to expend your energy matters more than you may think as it compounds over time. If you're constantly deluding yourself there is reform in a system that is designed to be this way, you'll be in incapable of creating viable alternatives. I had qualms about how poor the US education system--I went to both private and public schools--when I was student, I couldn't fathom just how much we spent and how poor the results were in almost all facets until I realized that this was exactly what it was intended to be: a bloated bureaucratic system designed to siphon funds from the pubic coffers into private hands and enrich an administrative class who seem content with throwing out what they feel impedes them meeting their easily manipulated metrics. With that said, I still think the airline bailout was the real takeaway of how this whole debacle was managed [0] in the US. It's the typical Socialism for the rich, ruthless Capitalism for the poor playing out all over again as we saw in 2008. Failing up happened, and the stock market and housing market rallied in the midst of mass unemployment and re-opening problems for small businesses etc... this is all make-believe, and it has been for most of my Life, too. It would be almost laughable, in a jaded George Carlin way, if it didn't have such dire consequences: homelessness, and over-dose death due to substance abuse is a pandemic itself. Personally speaking, after having done sales for my fintech startup, I learned to do the same: but I'm realizing just how internally jaded it has made me about most things in Life. It has a spill-over effect that didn't really dawn me until much later in Life long after I left tech for a while, and returned to culinary whose work force is mainly the 'working poor' who constantly get screwed over. I've helped several of my friends get over the worst situation, and I'm glad they are mostly doing better, but it isn't by much after inflation and perpetual rent hikes. 0: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54381496 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54381496

ryandvm 4y ago

Not taking PPP money that your business is eligible for is akin to paying more taxes than you're required. Maybe it's honorable in some strange way, but it's certainly not rational.

somethoughts 4y ago
In my humble opinion - this is a great insight on both paying your fair share and not taking PPP/social security/unemployment even if you technically can but don't actually need it. It should be lauded more even though it probably will never be.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  I don't know why we would have debates on whether we should "laud" things or not. How about regulating things, rather than having debates about who or what should be praised? Companies aren't dogs or children. I personally get very little from either the praise or condemnation of anonymous strangers. Not really directed at you, I'm just sick of the idea that if we all get together and declare things good or bad, that's some sort of accomplishment. People who do well do well through ignoring the irrelevant and immaterial comments of busybodies and bikeshedders.
  - WastingMyTime89 4y ago
    Moral exists and you can aim for a virtuous life in an Aristotelian way and are free to think people who strive for that should be admired. I am at this point in my life of an opinion opposite to yours. What people do is not neutral and people who abuse system or knowingly profit from harmful systems have a negative impact on our society as a whole and it is legitimate to see their actions as bad.
    - xvector 4y ago
      I'm struggling with this personally as I decide whether or not to work for unethical companies in exchange for life-changing compensation. Overall I think my suffering-footprint is tiny compared to most so maybe I'm okay with being a bit more unethical in some areas of my life. But I'm unsure.
  - somethoughts 4y ago
    Agree - ideally it would be better if everyone just did their own thing and was valued by society for their contribution. The comment is much more as a counterpoint to the existing dogma of valuing an individual's contribution to society primarily based on ability to amass capital (i.e. splashy magazine covers based on net worth - which often translates to percentage ownership of a company valued on the price paid by the last marginal buyer).
- alliao 4y ago
  there's nothing fair, gov policies are created to stimulate economy, and that literally means people should go get it and spend it. stashing it in overseas safe haven is less ideal than say spend it all
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bbarn 4y ago
At the time, it also wouldn't have been wise because none of us had any clue what was going to happen long term. If you'd taken that money, paid your short term shortages with it, and held on to your reserves you could have been spending instead, you'd be in a better position later if things kept going badly.

Melting_Harps 4y ago

> But I think if any hard working people really found out what happened they'd almost go French revolution on government. I can't speak for everyone, but I have simply decided to opt-out wherever possible; I'm not going to fight against a system that has moated itself out of obsolescence. If startup culture has taught me anything it's been to learn when to expend your energy matters more than you may think as it compounds over time. If you're constantly deluding yourself there is reform in a system that is designed to be this way, you'll be in incapable of creating viable alternatives. I had qualms about how poor the US education system--I went to both private and public schools--when I was student, I couldn't fathom just how much we spent and how poor the results were in almost all facets until I realized that this was exactly what it was intended to be: a bloated bureaucratic system designed to siphon funds from the pubic coffers into private hands and enrich an administrative class who seem content with throwing out what they feel impedes them meeting their easily manipulated metrics. With that said, I still think the airline bailout was the real takeaway of how this whole debacle was managed [0] in the US. It's the typical Socialism for the rich, ruthless Capitalism for the poor playing out all over again as we saw in 2008. Failing up happened, and the stock market and housing market rallied in the midst of mass unemployment and re-opening problems for small businesses etc... this is all make-believe, and it has been for most of my Life, too. It would be almost laughable, in a jaded George Carlin way, if it didn't have such dire consequences: homelessness, and over-dose death due to substance abuse is a pandemic itself. Personally speaking, after having done sales for my fintech startup, I learned to do the same: but I'm realizing just how internally jaded it has made me about most things in Life. It has a spill-over effect that didn't really dawn me until much later in Life long after I left tech for a while, and returned to culinary whose work force is mainly the 'working poor' who constantly get screwed over. I've helped several of my friends get over the worst situation, and I'm glad they are mostly doing better, but it isn't by much after inflation and perpetual rent hikes. 0: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54381496 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54381496