11 ms·

A CEO's Guide to Emacs (2015)

163 points by pedrodelfino 4y ago

pedrodelfino 4y ago
Previous thread 3.5 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18652629 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18652629
- sixstringtheory 4y ago
  I'll inline the single comment to save you a click: > This article gets why Emacs is awesome so right, that, to be honest, there's nothing to add. > I'm always amazed by the people leaving Emacs for a few years to then come back and falling in love with it once again. Only very good tools make us feel like that. Everything else is nostalgia.
- dang 4y ago
  That plus these: A CEO's Guide to Emacs (2015) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18652629 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18652629 - Dec 2018 (1 comment) A CEO's Guide to Emacs (2015) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15753150 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15753150 - Nov 2017 (172 comments) A CEO's Guide to Emacs - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10642088 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10642088 - Nov 2015 (62 comments)
RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
My impression after reading a lot of blogs by Emacs users is that they spend more time thinking and writing about how to make Emacs do something, than the actual thing they are doing. For example, there will be more posts about how they mimicked most of the functionality of VSCode or a Jetbrains IDE than about any actual code they wrote (other than elisp). Given that I am naturally drawn to polishing my tools rather than actually using them, I am afraid that if I try Emacs my time,attention, and productivity will be sucked into the black hole of optimizing my Emacs workflow instead of actually executing my workflow.
- melissalobos 4y ago
  I can sympathize with this strongly. I have tried vim/emacs a few times, and frankly I can't see any improvement from just using any reasonable editor. Also from my own experience they tend to be much inferior IDEs than even a not so great one like Geany.
  - anthk 4y ago
    Geany doesn't have org-mode for notes/programming/workflow and zillions of more features.
    - melissalobos 4y ago
      I really can't say I have understood, what exactly org-mode is supposed to be. I have seen the website and had an ardent fan explain it to me, but still don't get it. How is it better than having another text file open in another tab? Or using a jupyter/pluto notebook?
      - ravi-delia 4y ago
        Org is theoretically just a markdown format. In practice it starts out as a markdown editor with a bunch of neat features, and can become this omnibus of organization. There's a whole organizational ecosystem which uses org as a sort of lingua franca, so the more you sacrifice at its alter the more it all comes together. I use it to unify my todo list and calendar, and have it display what needs to happen both on an hour to hour level and day to day. I use it to pin emails I want to reply to with one key combo, and connect notes to each other any way I want. I have no idea if it's useful enough to justify the time I put into it. For most people, probably not. But I've gotten it to the point that it's just totally frictionless for me, and not a single other system I've ever used has been easy enough to stick to.
      - User23 4y ago
        You’d have to try it for yourself and see.
      - 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jp0d 4y ago
I think I found the following one a few weeks ago. Working my way through it. I'm usually a Vim user on Linux. https://karthinks.com/software/batteries-included-with-emacs/ https://karthinks.com/software/batteries-included-with-emacs...
UI_at_80x24 4y ago
General emacs question: How do I install/use "evil mode", or Spacemacs, or Doom Emacs (whichever one gives me VIM keybindings for movement) and still use the built-in Help/Tutorial?
- mplanchard 4y ago
  You can press M-x (or the equivalent in your emacs distro, e.g. Spc-: in doom) and run `help-with-tutorial`
  - bananamerica 4y ago
    M-x, as well as most default keybindings, remains mapped in both Doom and Spacemacs.
plg 4y ago
he mentions in footnote 6 that he stores things in AWS S3 "via dropbox" ... how does this work?
- layer8 4y ago
  I suspect he’s just alluding to the fact that at the time Dropbox was using S3 as their back end.
oxff 4y ago
I always get discouraged by the fact that I'd have to buy-in to the Lisp language to even get going with Emacs. It just doesn't compete with the ease-of-use of data / declarative configuration of VSCode's JSON approach, plus it takes me trivial amount of time to have, say, Node development environment running inside a container with VSCode. I don't even know if you can do that with Emacs to begin with.
- BeetleB 4y ago
  > I always get discouraged by the fact that I'd have to buy-in to the Lisp language to even get going with Emacs. You can't be further from the truth. I was a power Emacs user for almost a decade with virtually no Elisp knowledge. I could set variables, but as an example, couldn't write a loop or function. Of course, once you know elisp, you'll find excuses to use it.
  - anthk 4y ago
    Emacs comes with an elisp guide I think. https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/eintr/index.html https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/eintr/in...
- midislack 4y ago
  You can learn enough lisp to get started in fifteen minutes if you already know some other computer programming language.
- froh 4y ago
  Do you mean "remote development", ssh/scp-ing with the container? I did remote development with emacs in the late 1990s so slightly I'm confused what you consider so special about working with containers?
  - heywoodlh 4y ago
    > Do you mean "remote development", ssh/scp-ing with the container? I think they are referring to the integration of VSCode with Docker. I.E. build, deploy and run your project in a clean container environment quickly using a workflow that is intuitive to VSCode users. That being said, I know for me it would be fairly trivial to workout this same type of integration for myself with Vim. Although I am not an Emacs user I am positive it wouldn't be difficult to do something similar. I don't really see this as a feature I would ever care to implement or find important for myself. EDIT: to be clear, I am a Vim user and do not find VSCode intuitive at all -- but I have seen how it seems to really work well for a lot of people
woolion 4y ago
To counterpoint some of the negative comments. People make guides to emacs because you need to learn to be able to use it efficiently. This is in clear opposition to modern IDEs where you can somewhat get by without learning anything (although that becomes false quite fast). However, this learning is foundational and compose with almost everything you want to do as a programmer. When you start using line/words based edits, performing a git rebase becomes much faster and comfortable. You start 'grokking it'. On the other end of the spectrum, you have colleagues who are 'experienced programmers' who use VSCode and therefore need help any time they don't understand the messages git spew out to them when pushing the git button does not work. It's one example, but you'll learn regex, vim, maybe even some lisp! With all that said, I've been learning some emacs and even though it taught me a lot, the experience has been bumpy. I loved Spacemacs shortcuts design, but I've encountered multiple bugs that make it hang at boot, etc. I'll probably restart with emfy or something like that soon.
- baby 4y ago
  It's all about the time you're willing to invest in your tools. The more you use your tool, the more that time invested will pay off. In the case of emacs though, the problem to me is the continuous learning curve. You ALWAYS and CONTINUOUSLY have to invest time. Every time you want to use a new language, try a new plugin, etc. you need to learn a bunch of shortcuts. I think this is detrimental to actually becoming more efficient at using your IDE. With VSCode, I can quickly try a dozens of plugins without having to learn all the bindings, and if I really want to use a few long-term I can just fuzzy search the commands and get a reminder of what the shortcut is. The example you give with git is about investing your time learning git, not investing your time learning emacs. I use git on the terminal within VSCode.
  - klibertp 4y ago
    > You ALWAYS and CONTINUOUSLY have to invest time. Not at all. First, you learn Emacs Lisp. Then, you don't need to learn anything else related to Emacs, EVER. > Every time you want to use a new language, try a new plugin, etc. you need to learn a bunch of shortcuts. I think this is detrimental to actually becoming more efficient at using your IDE. No, not at all. Just rebind the defaults - the defaults are what suited the author of the package, and being a different person in different environment there's very little chance they would suit you. So, instead of learning how others do things, just pick keys you want to use, and write a hook for every new mode to bind those keys to the functions you expect of them. Once you know even just a little Elisp, it's a trivial thing to do - literally 10 minutes on the longer side. > I can just fuzzy search the commands and get a reminder of what the shortcut is. I do the same in Emacs all the time. Press Alt+x and start typing, Helm will display keybinding next to the (fuzzily matched) command names (doing it this way is often faster(!) than pressing the key combination, which can involve multiple keys in a row, in a so-called chord). From the same interface, you can jump to the command source and display its documentation, too. > The example you give with git is about investing your time learning git, not investing your time learning emacs. I use git on the terminal within VSCode. I think the OP meant specifically the interactive rebase, where you're expected to replace the leading word in each line with one of a few choices. Of course, Magit is the answer here, so you don't even need the advanced ways of navigating and replacing text.
danieldevries 4y ago
I'm personally invested in the (neo)vim universe. Plenty of people bemoan the fact that there is a learning curve, or that one might spend time customizing their setup. I enjoy using well thought out tools. Since I was young I could appreciate the weight of hammer in my hands or the purchase a quality screwdriver gives. To which I often hear: "I dont get excited about tool X, Y, Z, its just a tool". It's all wonderfully subjective.
- phist_mcgee 4y ago
  +1 for neovim. You get the extensibility of emacs, but with the ergonomics of 'just' a text editor.
tipsytoad 4y ago
I'm on the other end of this. Recently moved to VSCode from Doom (before that neovim), it was just so slow for me. With default settings, switching between projects can take up to 10 seconds, which is instantaneous on VS, and can get actual latency between keypresses. I just didn't know what i was missing. Anyone who hasn't looked at VS in a while I'd highly recommend it, just spending some time removing the bloat can make for a real clean experience.
- trenchgun 4y ago
  Agreed. There are some things which VSCode can't quite match, but as a whole it is just better tool for most jobs than Emacs.
- ParetoOptimal 4y ago
  > With default settings, switching between projects can take up to 10 seconds, which is instantaneous on VS That just sounds like a bug, not an inherent deficiency of emacs. Curious what language, mode, and of you had custom config.

163 points by pedrodelfino 4y ago

Previous thread 3.5 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18652629 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18652629

sixstringtheory 4y ago
I'll inline the single comment to save you a click: > This article gets why Emacs is awesome so right, that, to be honest, there's nothing to add. > I'm always amazed by the people leaving Emacs for a few years to then come back and falling in love with it once again. Only very good tools make us feel like that. Everything else is nostalgia.
dang 4y ago
That plus these: A CEO's Guide to Emacs (2015) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18652629 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18652629 - Dec 2018 (1 comment) A CEO's Guide to Emacs (2015) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15753150 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15753150 - Nov 2017 (172 comments) A CEO's Guide to Emacs - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10642088 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10642088 - Nov 2015 (62 comments)

RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago

My impression after reading a lot of blogs by Emacs users is that they spend more time thinking and writing about how to make Emacs do something, than the actual thing they are doing. For example, there will be more posts about how they mimicked most of the functionality of VSCode or a Jetbrains IDE than about any actual code they wrote (other than elisp). Given that I am naturally drawn to polishing my tools rather than actually using them, I am afraid that if I try Emacs my time,attention, and productivity will be sucked into the black hole of optimizing my Emacs workflow instead of actually executing my workflow.

melissalobos 4y ago
I can sympathize with this strongly. I have tried vim/emacs a few times, and frankly I can't see any improvement from just using any reasonable editor. Also from my own experience they tend to be much inferior IDEs than even a not so great one like Geany.
- anthk 4y ago
  Geany doesn't have org-mode for notes/programming/workflow and zillions of more features.
  - melissalobos 4y ago
    I really can't say I have understood, what exactly org-mode is supposed to be. I have seen the website and had an ardent fan explain it to me, but still don't get it. How is it better than having another text file open in another tab? Or using a jupyter/pluto notebook?
    - ravi-delia 4y ago
      Org is theoretically just a markdown format. In practice it starts out as a markdown editor with a bunch of neat features, and can become this omnibus of organization. There's a whole organizational ecosystem which uses org as a sort of lingua franca, so the more you sacrifice at its alter the more it all comes together. I use it to unify my todo list and calendar, and have it display what needs to happen both on an hour to hour level and day to day. I use it to pin emails I want to reply to with one key combo, and connect notes to each other any way I want. I have no idea if it's useful enough to justify the time I put into it. For most people, probably not. But I've gotten it to the point that it's just totally frictionless for me, and not a single other system I've ever used has been easy enough to stick to.
    - User23 4y ago
      You’d have to try it for yourself and see.
    - 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

jp0d 4y ago

I think I found the following one a few weeks ago. Working my way through it. I'm usually a Vim user on Linux. https://karthinks.com/software/batteries-included-with-emacs/ https://karthinks.com/software/batteries-included-with-emacs...

UI_at_80x24 4y ago

General emacs question: How do I install/use "evil mode", or Spacemacs, or Doom Emacs (whichever one gives me VIM keybindings for movement) and still use the built-in Help/Tutorial?

mplanchard 4y ago
You can press M-x (or the equivalent in your emacs distro, e.g. Spc-: in doom) and run `help-with-tutorial`
- bananamerica 4y ago
  M-x, as well as most default keybindings, remains mapped in both Doom and Spacemacs.

plg 4y ago

he mentions in footnote 6 that he stores things in AWS S3 "via dropbox" ... how does this work?

layer8 4y ago
I suspect he’s just alluding to the fact that at the time Dropbox was using S3 as their back end.

oxff 4y ago

I always get discouraged by the fact that I'd have to buy-in to the Lisp language to even get going with Emacs. It just doesn't compete with the ease-of-use of data / declarative configuration of VSCode's JSON approach, plus it takes me trivial amount of time to have, say, Node development environment running inside a container with VSCode. I don't even know if you can do that with Emacs to begin with.

BeetleB 4y ago
> I always get discouraged by the fact that I'd have to buy-in to the Lisp language to even get going with Emacs. You can't be further from the truth. I was a power Emacs user for almost a decade with virtually no Elisp knowledge. I could set variables, but as an example, couldn't write a loop or function. Of course, once you know elisp, you'll find excuses to use it.
- anthk 4y ago
  Emacs comes with an elisp guide I think. https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/eintr/index.html https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/eintr/in...
midislack 4y ago
You can learn enough lisp to get started in fifteen minutes if you already know some other computer programming language.
froh 4y ago
Do you mean "remote development", ssh/scp-ing with the container? I did remote development with emacs in the late 1990s so slightly I'm confused what you consider so special about working with containers?
- heywoodlh 4y ago
  > Do you mean "remote development", ssh/scp-ing with the container? I think they are referring to the integration of VSCode with Docker. I.E. build, deploy and run your project in a clean container environment quickly using a workflow that is intuitive to VSCode users. That being said, I know for me it would be fairly trivial to workout this same type of integration for myself with Vim. Although I am not an Emacs user I am positive it wouldn't be difficult to do something similar. I don't really see this as a feature I would ever care to implement or find important for myself. EDIT: to be clear, I am a Vim user and do not find VSCode intuitive at all -- but I have seen how it seems to really work well for a lot of people

woolion 4y ago

To counterpoint some of the negative comments. People make guides to emacs because you need to learn to be able to use it efficiently. This is in clear opposition to modern IDEs where you can somewhat get by without learning anything (although that becomes false quite fast). However, this learning is foundational and compose with almost everything you want to do as a programmer. When you start using line/words based edits, performing a git rebase becomes much faster and comfortable. You start 'grokking it'. On the other end of the spectrum, you have colleagues who are 'experienced programmers' who use VSCode and therefore need help any time they don't understand the messages git spew out to them when pushing the git button does not work. It's one example, but you'll learn regex, vim, maybe even some lisp! With all that said, I've been learning some emacs and even though it taught me a lot, the experience has been bumpy. I loved Spacemacs shortcuts design, but I've encountered multiple bugs that make it hang at boot, etc. I'll probably restart with emfy or something like that soon.

baby 4y ago
It's all about the time you're willing to invest in your tools. The more you use your tool, the more that time invested will pay off. In the case of emacs though, the problem to me is the continuous learning curve. You ALWAYS and CONTINUOUSLY have to invest time. Every time you want to use a new language, try a new plugin, etc. you need to learn a bunch of shortcuts. I think this is detrimental to actually becoming more efficient at using your IDE. With VSCode, I can quickly try a dozens of plugins without having to learn all the bindings, and if I really want to use a few long-term I can just fuzzy search the commands and get a reminder of what the shortcut is. The example you give with git is about investing your time learning git, not investing your time learning emacs. I use git on the terminal within VSCode.
- klibertp 4y ago
  > You ALWAYS and CONTINUOUSLY have to invest time. Not at all. First, you learn Emacs Lisp. Then, you don't need to learn anything else related to Emacs, EVER. > Every time you want to use a new language, try a new plugin, etc. you need to learn a bunch of shortcuts. I think this is detrimental to actually becoming more efficient at using your IDE. No, not at all. Just rebind the defaults - the defaults are what suited the author of the package, and being a different person in different environment there's very little chance they would suit you. So, instead of learning how others do things, just pick keys you want to use, and write a hook for every new mode to bind those keys to the functions you expect of them. Once you know even just a little Elisp, it's a trivial thing to do - literally 10 minutes on the longer side. > I can just fuzzy search the commands and get a reminder of what the shortcut is. I do the same in Emacs all the time. Press Alt+x and start typing, Helm will display keybinding next to the (fuzzily matched) command names (doing it this way is often faster(!) than pressing the key combination, which can involve multiple keys in a row, in a so-called chord). From the same interface, you can jump to the command source and display its documentation, too. > The example you give with git is about investing your time learning git, not investing your time learning emacs. I use git on the terminal within VSCode. I think the OP meant specifically the interactive rebase, where you're expected to replace the leading word in each line with one of a few choices. Of course, Magit is the answer here, so you don't even need the advanced ways of navigating and replacing text.

danieldevries 4y ago

I'm personally invested in the (neo)vim universe. Plenty of people bemoan the fact that there is a learning curve, or that one might spend time customizing their setup. I enjoy using well thought out tools. Since I was young I could appreciate the weight of hammer in my hands or the purchase a quality screwdriver gives. To which I often hear: "I dont get excited about tool X, Y, Z, its just a tool". It's all wonderfully subjective.

phist_mcgee 4y ago
+1 for neovim. You get the extensibility of emacs, but with the ergonomics of 'just' a text editor.

tipsytoad 4y ago

I'm on the other end of this. Recently moved to VSCode from Doom (before that neovim), it was just so slow for me. With default settings, switching between projects can take up to 10 seconds, which is instantaneous on VS, and can get actual latency between keypresses. I just didn't know what i was missing. Anyone who hasn't looked at VS in a while I'd highly recommend it, just spending some time removing the bloat can make for a real clean experience.

trenchgun 4y ago
Agreed. There are some things which VSCode can't quite match, but as a whole it is just better tool for most jobs than Emacs.
ParetoOptimal 4y ago
> With default settings, switching between projects can take up to 10 seconds, which is instantaneous on VS That just sounds like a bug, not an inherent deficiency of emacs. Curious what language, mode, and of you had custom config.