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I have a theory that many of these ludicrous spirals are caused by self-proclaimed “allies” taking on the mantle of others’ oppression and calling out behaviour

I have a theory that many of these ludicrous spirals are caused by self-proclaimed “allies” taking on the mantle of others’ oppression and calling out behaviour that is actually fine. The original blog post behind this case (where the woman wrote about how foreign India seemed but how excited she was to visit) is a perfect example. The people calling out her “colonialist” references to Mars claim to be speaking on behalf of their friends. Then you have actual Indian people coming along later, wondering what the fuss was about and welcoming the author to India. My theory probably doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny but it useful to ask “is anywhere here actually saying that they’re personally offended?”.

RangerScience 4y ago
I notice a big difference between how social workers and social "warriors" talk. So far, universally, the people "on the ground", doing the work, are very nice to talk to. Informative, understanding, firm, kind.
- dmurray 4y ago
  Social workers help people based on their need. Social warriors help people based on their identity. It's not surprising the two work in different ways.
  - majormajor 4y ago
    I thought the definition of a "warrior" here was that they didn't help people at all, they just screamed on Twitter. (AKA isn't Twitter itself a huge part of the problem?)
swearwolf 4y ago
There’s a lot of discourse going around these days about white people. Not much of it is positive. It’s understandable; just about every person of color has at least one story in which a white person made them feel terrible because of their race, whether intentionally or not. There’s a lot of pent up anger, and it’s socially acceptable to vent that anger now, so people do. As a result, there are a lot of well meaning white people who are receiving the message that they, and people who look like them, are making the lives of people of color hard. Some people react to that by getting angry, others react by looking for opportunities to prove they aren’t that kind of white person. When they see an interaction like this one, they feel compelled to act, and they do. Sometimes way out of proportion to the inciting incident. Other well meaning and anxious people react positively to the callout, which reinforces the perception that this is the right thing to do. The person who committed the offense often tries to clarify their position, which presents more opportunities to call them out. In situations like this, even apologies are often criticized. Each time this process unfolds, the line of acceptable behavior creeps ever backwards, and increasingly benign actions and statements end up on the other side of it.
quadrifoliate 4y ago
> The people calling out her “colonialist” references to Mars claim to be speaking on behalf of their friends. Then you have actual Indian people coming along later, wondering what the fuss was about and welcoming the author to India. Eh. Actual Indian person here. I think it's pretty stupid to comparing a flight to India to "going to Mars". You have Pizza Hut, Subway, and KFC in India, for crying out loud. In normal times, the person saying things like this would have been chided by a few of their friends. Now they are viciously attacked by the whole of the Internet – which is the real problem.
- cultofmetatron 4y ago
  to be fair, (if india is anything like srilanka in that regard) she might be shocked when she finds the quality of the food is better. American ingredients are relatively poor. I remember having pizza hut in srilanka and it was delicious and used fresh pineapple. the American version was greasy and disgusting with meager portions of the canned stuff
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    That's not really fair, America is just like any other part of the world -- some places have good ingredients, some not so much. I had great food in India, but I also had some that gave me a major case of the runs. I've had plenty of really great food in America, but I'll grant that if Pizza Hut is your thing, then you're after something different from me. Also, the woman in question was coming from the UK, as I recall, so alleged food quality in America wouldn't be terribly important to her.
    - Doxin 4y ago
      I think the parent comment is trying to allude to Pizza Hut in india being higher quality than Pizza Hut in America. It's an apples-to-apples comparison.
      - rootusrootus 4y ago
jrm4 4y ago
Black person here, and yes, this is a pretty good way to look at it. I think perhaps you can see two extremes, the theoretical annoyed white person who just wants things to not be complicated at all, and the going too far naive liberal who wants to call out everything. And the answer is always "It's never an easy answer. You have to do your homework. And it might change, and it might get uncomfortable. Too bad."
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- User23 4y ago
  > And the answer is always "It's never an easy answer. You have to do your homework. And it might change, and it might get uncomfortable. Too bad." The easy answer is “I really don’t care.”
  - jrm4 4y ago
    Correct, and I trust you're intending to point out that the easy answer is also an awful one?
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  I have a working assumption that most minorities I interact with would prefer just to be treated like any other human, not badly, not special, just normal. So that's how I approach it. So far so good, the only time I've ever met anyone that seemed oversensitive, it was a white woman. Because of course it was.
  - jrm4 4y ago
    I appreciate this idea quite a bit -- but it strikes me as a little too simplistic and conclusory for the topic at hand. It's not this simple, which is why I'm harping on "homework." I think this is because you're presently talking about interactions with individuals, and the main topic is about dealing with groups and their dynamics.

RangerScience 4y ago

I notice a big difference between how social workers and social "warriors" talk. So far, universally, the people "on the ground", doing the work, are very nice to talk to. Informative, understanding, firm, kind.

dmurray 4y ago
Social workers help people based on their need. Social warriors help people based on their identity. It's not surprising the two work in different ways.
- majormajor 4y ago
  I thought the definition of a "warrior" here was that they didn't help people at all, they just screamed on Twitter. (AKA isn't Twitter itself a huge part of the problem?)

swearwolf 4y ago

There’s a lot of discourse going around these days about white people. Not much of it is positive. It’s understandable; just about every person of color has at least one story in which a white person made them feel terrible because of their race, whether intentionally or not. There’s a lot of pent up anger, and it’s socially acceptable to vent that anger now, so people do. As a result, there are a lot of well meaning white people who are receiving the message that they, and people who look like them, are making the lives of people of color hard. Some people react to that by getting angry, others react by looking for opportunities to prove they aren’t that kind of white person. When they see an interaction like this one, they feel compelled to act, and they do. Sometimes way out of proportion to the inciting incident. Other well meaning and anxious people react positively to the callout, which reinforces the perception that this is the right thing to do. The person who committed the offense often tries to clarify their position, which presents more opportunities to call them out. In situations like this, even apologies are often criticized. Each time this process unfolds, the line of acceptable behavior creeps ever backwards, and increasingly benign actions and statements end up on the other side of it.

quadrifoliate 4y ago

> The people calling out her “colonialist” references to Mars claim to be speaking on behalf of their friends. Then you have actual Indian people coming along later, wondering what the fuss was about and welcoming the author to India. Eh. Actual Indian person here. I think it's pretty stupid to comparing a flight to India to "going to Mars". You have Pizza Hut, Subway, and KFC in India, for crying out loud. In normal times, the person saying things like this would have been chided by a few of their friends. Now they are viciously attacked by the whole of the Internet – which is the real problem.

cultofmetatron 4y ago
to be fair, (if india is anything like srilanka in that regard) she might be shocked when she finds the quality of the food is better. American ingredients are relatively poor. I remember having pizza hut in srilanka and it was delicious and used fresh pineapple. the American version was greasy and disgusting with meager portions of the canned stuff
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  That's not really fair, America is just like any other part of the world -- some places have good ingredients, some not so much. I had great food in India, but I also had some that gave me a major case of the runs. I've had plenty of really great food in America, but I'll grant that if Pizza Hut is your thing, then you're after something different from me. Also, the woman in question was coming from the UK, as I recall, so alleged food quality in America wouldn't be terribly important to her.
  - Doxin 4y ago
    I think the parent comment is trying to allude to Pizza Hut in india being higher quality than Pizza Hut in America. It's an apples-to-apples comparison.
    - rootusrootus 4y ago

jrm4 4y ago

Black person here, and yes, this is a pretty good way to look at it. I think perhaps you can see two extremes, the theoretical annoyed white person who just wants things to not be complicated at all, and the going too far naive liberal who wants to call out everything. And the answer is always "It's never an easy answer. You have to do your homework. And it might change, and it might get uncomfortable. Too bad."

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
User23 4y ago
> And the answer is always "It's never an easy answer. You have to do your homework. And it might change, and it might get uncomfortable. Too bad." The easy answer is “I really don’t care.”
- jrm4 4y ago
  Correct, and I trust you're intending to point out that the easy answer is also an awful one?
rootusrootus 4y ago
I have a working assumption that most minorities I interact with would prefer just to be treated like any other human, not badly, not special, just normal. So that's how I approach it. So far so good, the only time I've ever met anyone that seemed oversensitive, it was a white woman. Because of course it was.
- jrm4 4y ago
  I appreciate this idea quite a bit -- but it strikes me as a little too simplistic and conclusory for the topic at hand. It's not this simple, which is why I'm harping on "homework." I think this is because you're presently talking about interactions with individuals, and the main topic is about dealing with groups and their dynamics.