4 ms·

After reading the comments in the previous thread, I thought about what has changed in the two years since. My impression is that kind of escalating purity ratc

After reading the comments in the previous thread, I thought about what has changed in the two years since. My impression is that kind of escalating purity ratchet peaked in the fall and early part of this year, or at least it hit a ratchet point where the next lift is going to be exponentially harder than the previous ones because there is real popular reaction and revolt against it. Personally I have become much less agreeable, and as a result, people in my own networks who might have participated in the ratcheting don't do it when I am around, because the purity ratcheting was essentially a way to abuse and exploit peoples agreeableness. Given it was such a tiny minority to begin with, if only a small fraction of the majority become disagreeable, it can halt the spiral of hysteria it requires. What I/many can articulate more simply now that we didn't have the words for then is that this is a very old redemption hustle, and they're offering a kind of redemption I don't need. Just because someone is uncharitable doesn't mean I have to mollify them, and demanding a denial or denunciation from me is just their way of making a conversation about themselves. It's a disease of politeness, and the reason we got here is because we forgot sometimes in this world it is appropriate and necessary to say, please, fuck off, because we are being taken advantage of by people betting very heavily that we won't.

0des 4y ago
It reminds me a lot in school of a bully who had oppressed almost the entire class. He started with the most proximal targets, then moved on to others where toward the end of his reign he encountered a kid who I can only assume was non-perceptive to the situation at hand who in response to be harassed at the lunch table for his fruit cup said "no, and please go away, I'm eating" and just like that, this bully whom had never encountered resistance was speechless. This kid's oblivious nature to the social situation broke the bully's brain in a form of pattern-interrupt. The bully wasn't reformed after that, he remained a bully until we parted ways years later, however the group was wiser for it, and that type of behavior had a very short half life as a result. As I get older, this phenomenon is emblematic or representative of society. Sometimes culture dictates that there are certain things we just won't accept anymore, like spousal assault, smoking in the public indoors, and poor legislation. Resistance is cumulative.
- MichaelZuo 4y ago
  Plus non-linear, with activation energies, sometimes piece wise continuous, etc…
duxup 4y ago
I've wondered the same. I feel like I've seen a subtle but very significant change in people's approach. In the past on some corners of the internet I'd get "down voted" (whatever system the locals use, not just reddit) for anything that smelled of X, Y, or Z. That's still the case at times BUT I've seen a lot more folks express distaste for that kind of crusade and gotten a lot more support from people when inevitably I end up sayng "No that's not what i'm saying, I'm tired of having to say that ... we can say X and not be Y". Meanwhile the most egregious examples of the kind of calling folks out for their perceived impurity such as "you know you don't have to defend X" type comments seem to get a great deal less support now, if not outright ridicule.
- 0des 4y ago
  Like people who can oppose illegal immigration but not also hate those who are seeking to immigrate.
  - akimball 4y ago
    They can. But it breaks against the trend.
    - tbrownaw 4y ago
      Does it? The reporting on polls I've heard of sound like it has a few to many convenient assumptions baked in. Answer that they is a limit to how much immigration is sustainable? Clearly you must think we're over that limit now. Answer that cheating visa systems is bad? Clearly you must think the quotas are high enough as they are. Answer that opening the floodgates would let in problematic people? Clearly you must think contrary to data! that the people currently being let in are bad (rather than that the process acts as a filter). It's at least as complex of an issue as the new hot topic, where appropriately formulated polls can claim to find overwhelming support for either extreme position despite that (or because, really) most people seem to favor something somewhere in the middle.
    - rayiner 4y ago
      Not at all. Opposition to immigration is rooted in practical matters, not “hate.” For example, loss of political control—both liberals and conservatives like immigrants who vote the way they do, and dislike immigrants who vote the opposite way: https://www.cato.org/survey-reports/e-pluribus-unum-findings-cato-institute-2021-immigration-identity-national-survey https://www.cato.org/survey-reports/e-pluribus-unum-findings..., specifically: https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/styles/pubs_2x/public/2021-04/40_Chart.jpg?itok=3YwXe14w https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/styles/pubs_2x/pub... I’m a very obviously brown guy and happen to be an immigrant. Up until 2016 or so, most of my encounters with racism had been from homeless people. But in the last few years that’s quickly been overshadowed by white liberals getting angry that I don’t want to be part of their “rainbow coalition.” (And that has been over further overshadowed by well meaning white liberals acting really weird.) Despite living in a Trump precinct I have yet to encounter any racism from a Trump voter.
Uhhrrr 4y ago
This is really nicely put: "purity ratchet", "redemption hustle", "disease of politeness".
hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
Very much agree. I can think of a number of very specific examples in the past year where a lot of middle-of-the-road folks just said "Enough is enough - this is bullshit." In particular, I think that people are taking a stand against being "cancelled" when they are engaging in good-faith discussion or disagreement, and they are fed up with people taking anything that doesn't 100% comport to their world view out of context and themselves using it to make the worst kind of bad faith arguments.
- viraptor 4y ago
  Has cancelling ever worked outside of very small communities? The only time I hear about that impact is when the target person cares / reacts in any way. The closest case of real impact I can think of is jkr who keeps pushing her bs and that causes more and more people to not give her money, but that's still not even close to actual cancelling.
inglor_cz 4y ago
So a comment from another side of the pond, where other problems matter ... I think the reason why lots of such endeavors peaked and subsided is removal of a major irritant - the former president. Trump was fairly unusual in his ability to boil the blood of his opponents into outright madness, in a way that, say, GWB couldn't. If he spent 4 more years in the WH, I am not sure what would be the end result.
- esyir 4y ago
  Alternate hypothesis. Why do they need to campaign like that, they control the presidency.
raxxorraxor 4y ago
My experience is that people enforcing this purity quickly give up on the slightest resistance, but I think it is necessary to be less agreeable too and I also see it as being taken advantage off. Large parts of journalism in my country tried to enforce new speech conventions around gender and racism and politics even implemented a law for speech codes in applications. The party responsible is not really popular right now and I don't think anyone has really changed their language. There are some few exceptions but people tend not to care. Result is that there is an even larger trust problem between people, politics and press. In my opinion people trying to improve language expose themselves and what you see is mainly shallow and ugly, especially if they shine the focus on prejudice where they usually don't really form good role models compared to the average bloke. I still remember some companies that jumped on this train though and I am looking for signs if I want to work for any of them. Because that will inevitably be a toxic relationship and with probably management with a weird focus.

0des 4y ago

It reminds me a lot in school of a bully who had oppressed almost the entire class. He started with the most proximal targets, then moved on to others where toward the end of his reign he encountered a kid who I can only assume was non-perceptive to the situation at hand who in response to be harassed at the lunch table for his fruit cup said "no, and please go away, I'm eating" and just like that, this bully whom had never encountered resistance was speechless. This kid's oblivious nature to the social situation broke the bully's brain in a form of pattern-interrupt. The bully wasn't reformed after that, he remained a bully until we parted ways years later, however the group was wiser for it, and that type of behavior had a very short half life as a result. As I get older, this phenomenon is emblematic or representative of society. Sometimes culture dictates that there are certain things we just won't accept anymore, like spousal assault, smoking in the public indoors, and poor legislation. Resistance is cumulative.

MichaelZuo 4y ago
Plus non-linear, with activation energies, sometimes piece wise continuous, etc…

duxup 4y ago

I've wondered the same. I feel like I've seen a subtle but very significant change in people's approach. In the past on some corners of the internet I'd get "down voted" (whatever system the locals use, not just reddit) for anything that smelled of X, Y, or Z. That's still the case at times BUT I've seen a lot more folks express distaste for that kind of crusade and gotten a lot more support from people when inevitably I end up sayng "No that's not what i'm saying, I'm tired of having to say that ... we can say X and not be Y". Meanwhile the most egregious examples of the kind of calling folks out for their perceived impurity such as "you know you don't have to defend X" type comments seem to get a great deal less support now, if not outright ridicule.

0des 4y ago
Like people who can oppose illegal immigration but not also hate those who are seeking to immigrate.
- akimball 4y ago
  They can. But it breaks against the trend.
  - tbrownaw 4y ago
    Does it? The reporting on polls I've heard of sound like it has a few to many convenient assumptions baked in. Answer that they is a limit to how much immigration is sustainable? Clearly you must think we're over that limit now. Answer that cheating visa systems is bad? Clearly you must think the quotas are high enough as they are. Answer that opening the floodgates would let in problematic people? Clearly you must think contrary to data! that the people currently being let in are bad (rather than that the process acts as a filter). It's at least as complex of an issue as the new hot topic, where appropriately formulated polls can claim to find overwhelming support for either extreme position despite that (or because, really) most people seem to favor something somewhere in the middle.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    Not at all. Opposition to immigration is rooted in practical matters, not “hate.” For example, loss of political control—both liberals and conservatives like immigrants who vote the way they do, and dislike immigrants who vote the opposite way: https://www.cato.org/survey-reports/e-pluribus-unum-findings-cato-institute-2021-immigration-identity-national-survey https://www.cato.org/survey-reports/e-pluribus-unum-findings..., specifically: https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/styles/pubs_2x/public/2021-04/40_Chart.jpg?itok=3YwXe14w https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/styles/pubs_2x/pub... I’m a very obviously brown guy and happen to be an immigrant. Up until 2016 or so, most of my encounters with racism had been from homeless people. But in the last few years that’s quickly been overshadowed by white liberals getting angry that I don’t want to be part of their “rainbow coalition.” (And that has been over further overshadowed by well meaning white liberals acting really weird.) Despite living in a Trump precinct I have yet to encounter any racism from a Trump voter.

Uhhrrr 4y ago

This is really nicely put: "purity ratchet", "redemption hustle", "disease of politeness".

hn_throwaway_99 4y ago

Very much agree. I can think of a number of very specific examples in the past year where a lot of middle-of-the-road folks just said "Enough is enough - this is bullshit." In particular, I think that people are taking a stand against being "cancelled" when they are engaging in good-faith discussion or disagreement, and they are fed up with people taking anything that doesn't 100% comport to their world view out of context and themselves using it to make the worst kind of bad faith arguments.

viraptor 4y ago
Has cancelling ever worked outside of very small communities? The only time I hear about that impact is when the target person cares / reacts in any way. The closest case of real impact I can think of is jkr who keeps pushing her bs and that causes more and more people to not give her money, but that's still not even close to actual cancelling.

inglor_cz 4y ago

So a comment from another side of the pond, where other problems matter ... I think the reason why lots of such endeavors peaked and subsided is removal of a major irritant - the former president. Trump was fairly unusual in his ability to boil the blood of his opponents into outright madness, in a way that, say, GWB couldn't. If he spent 4 more years in the WH, I am not sure what would be the end result.

esyir 4y ago
Alternate hypothesis. Why do they need to campaign like that, they control the presidency.

raxxorraxor 4y ago

My experience is that people enforcing this purity quickly give up on the slightest resistance, but I think it is necessary to be less agreeable too and I also see it as being taken advantage off. Large parts of journalism in my country tried to enforce new speech conventions around gender and racism and politics even implemented a law for speech codes in applications. The party responsible is not really popular right now and I don't think anyone has really changed their language. There are some few exceptions but people tend not to care. Result is that there is an even larger trust problem between people, politics and press. In my opinion people trying to improve language expose themselves and what you see is mainly shallow and ugly, especially if they shine the focus on prejudice where they usually don't really form good role models compared to the average bloke. I still remember some companies that jumped on this train though and I am looking for signs if I want to work for any of them. Because that will inevitably be a toxic relationship and with probably management with a weird focus.