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I don't think "just move" is the answer either, but the fact remains that the region cannot sustainably support its current population (much less a growing popu

I don't think "just move" is the answer either, but the fact remains that the region cannot sustainably support its current population (much less a growing population) given current levels of consumption. So, either the population has to be reduced, or consumption has to be reduced. But either option seems politically impossible. Our understanding of freedom is not compatible with the cold reality of constrained resources. There isn't a price mechanism capable of equitably reducing consumption, and there isn't a technological solution that's capable of scaling to demand. Something's gotta give.

apcragg 4y ago
There is plenty of water in the south west, we just use most of it to grow animal feed in the desert. Even worst, much of that water is subsidized by the US Government which allows farmers to grow that animal feed in the high plains where it would be economically infeasible otherwise. We have engineered this problem to the benefit of a small number of ranchers and farmers and seem determined to blame it on everybody else.
- salmonfamine 4y ago
  We agree here. By "consumption," I'm not just referring to residential consumption. There is enough water in the Southwest for a sizable population, of course. The problem ahead is how to distribute a constrained resource to that population without deferring to lobbied interests, wealthy landowners, golf-course owners, etc. That's an uphill battle, to say the least.
  - apcragg 4y ago
    For sure! Even Buy-and-dry schemes seem to be struggling with political backlash and those landowners are being fairly compensated in voluntary transactions. It's not going to be pretty when the junior water rights holders are cut off for good.
- freeopinion 4y ago
  The benefit is arguably not just to a small number of ranchers and farmers. The U.S. went all-in on globalization. That includes globalization of food production. For 50 years the typical USian has taken bananas and coconut for granted. Coffee is a staple in every kitchen. Produce and dairy of countless varieties are produced in California for consumers around the country and indeed around the world. Would you argue that globalization of the food supply chain is a mistake? Do you propose that Chicago grow its own spinach? Should Saudi Arabia grow its own alfalfa? Should apples and grapes consumed in Oklahoma be grown in Oklahoma? I suppose many people are rethinking this whole globalization strategy. From microchips to mozzarella. Economics: the spectator sport with real spectator consequences.
  - rurp 4y ago
    The fact that the US grows a lot of food domestically seems completely counter to what you're saying. Growing food within the US has a lot of benefits but doing so in the middle of the desert is the worst possible spot.
    - freeopinion 4y ago
      Prove it. Start a tomato farm in Tennessee and challenge Musk and Bezos with your fortune. Replace tobacco with carrots in North Carolina and see how it goes.
      - heartbreak 4y ago
        Here’s a list of almost exclusively tomato farms in a single county in TN. Your globalization take is bad, but the tired repetition of the only-California-grows-food trope is also bad. https://grainger.tennessee.edu/grainger-county-farmers-page/ https://grainger.tennessee.edu/grainger-county-farmers-page/ Literally famous for tomatoes, man. https://farmflavor.com/tennessee/tennessee-crops-livestock/why-grainger-county-tennessee-tomatoes-are-so-tasty/ https://farmflavor.com/tennessee/tennessee-crops-livestock/w...
        4y ago
- ianai 4y ago
  Agree. In LV they’ve got huge water works to recycle all water. It’s a known that the water almost exclusively leaves the system when it’s evaporated or used to water plants. And there are tight restrictions on residential use.

apcragg 4y ago

There is plenty of water in the south west, we just use most of it to grow animal feed in the desert. Even worst, much of that water is subsidized by the US Government which allows farmers to grow that animal feed in the high plains where it would be economically infeasible otherwise. We have engineered this problem to the benefit of a small number of ranchers and farmers and seem determined to blame it on everybody else.

salmonfamine 4y ago
We agree here. By "consumption," I'm not just referring to residential consumption. There is enough water in the Southwest for a sizable population, of course. The problem ahead is how to distribute a constrained resource to that population without deferring to lobbied interests, wealthy landowners, golf-course owners, etc. That's an uphill battle, to say the least.
- apcragg 4y ago
  For sure! Even Buy-and-dry schemes seem to be struggling with political backlash and those landowners are being fairly compensated in voluntary transactions. It's not going to be pretty when the junior water rights holders are cut off for good.
freeopinion 4y ago
The benefit is arguably not just to a small number of ranchers and farmers. The U.S. went all-in on globalization. That includes globalization of food production. For 50 years the typical USian has taken bananas and coconut for granted. Coffee is a staple in every kitchen. Produce and dairy of countless varieties are produced in California for consumers around the country and indeed around the world. Would you argue that globalization of the food supply chain is a mistake? Do you propose that Chicago grow its own spinach? Should Saudi Arabia grow its own alfalfa? Should apples and grapes consumed in Oklahoma be grown in Oklahoma? I suppose many people are rethinking this whole globalization strategy. From microchips to mozzarella. Economics: the spectator sport with real spectator consequences.
- rurp 4y ago
  The fact that the US grows a lot of food domestically seems completely counter to what you're saying. Growing food within the US has a lot of benefits but doing so in the middle of the desert is the worst possible spot.
  - freeopinion 4y ago
    Prove it. Start a tomato farm in Tennessee and challenge Musk and Bezos with your fortune. Replace tobacco with carrots in North Carolina and see how it goes.
    - heartbreak 4y ago
      Here’s a list of almost exclusively tomato farms in a single county in TN. Your globalization take is bad, but the tired repetition of the only-California-grows-food trope is also bad. https://grainger.tennessee.edu/grainger-county-farmers-page/ https://grainger.tennessee.edu/grainger-county-farmers-page/ Literally famous for tomatoes, man. https://farmflavor.com/tennessee/tennessee-crops-livestock/why-grainger-county-tennessee-tomatoes-are-so-tasty/ https://farmflavor.com/tennessee/tennessee-crops-livestock/w...
      - 4y ago
ianai 4y ago
Agree. In LV they’ve got huge water works to recycle all water. It’s a known that the water almost exclusively leaves the system when it’s evaporated or used to water plants. And there are tight restrictions on residential use.