3 ms·

Is there comparable data on other countries? What is this a proxy for? (Track upkeep problems? Trains are too fast for the load? Signaling issues? Mechanical is

by pas 5y ago

Is there comparable data on other countries? What is this a proxy for? (Track upkeep problems? Trains are too fast for the load? Signaling issues? Mechanical issues?) Rail safety seems a lot less complex and pretty much as regulated as aviation safety, how come there aren't just ~1-2 per year? Is it just because fatalities are luckily fewer (due to the nature of these derailments) so no one really gives a shit?

redshirtrob 5y ago
I don't know if there's comparable data, but I can tell you the mining companies in north west Australia would routinely run 300+ car trains without incident. But these were very much a straight line from the mine to the port without much civilization in between.
r_hoods_ghost 5y ago
Well in the UK there were 11 derailments total in 2020-21. The UK has roughly ~10,000 miles of railway and the USA ~150,000. Probably not a good comparison tbh. EU wide would probably be more appropriate but I couldn't find anything. https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/1999/rail-safety-2020-2021.pdf https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/1999/rail-safety-2020-20...
- hardware2win 5y ago
  Indeed, 5 derailments per day sounds like a lot
brnaftr361 5y ago
It's just the forces of the trains. When it's not a derailment it's breaking them. They're doubling the running room for slack action^, for one. That's the least of the concern, but there's more potential for breakage because there's more potential for greater differences in velocity from one end of the train to the other. Topology also matters, previously consists here average 135 cars, but range from 115 to 150, they're 53' each. Usually they'll have 4-5 motors at 74' each. Suffice it to say, depending on the territory there can be huge force differentials generated which can break trains or rail, think cresting a grade on undulating hills. And you can "stringline" trains too, literally pull cars off the tracks, and it's exactly those forces that'd do it. And then there's the human element. Nobody knows when they're going to work, how long it's going to take, what kind of bullshit they're going to run into. You can get stuck for long periods of time away from home terminal, and the Class 1 doesn't care. And there's things like rules on how to walk. The environment that's been constructed isn't meant for human consumption and it's taking a toll on the workforce. There's reams of other shit to whinge about. And the derailments always matter, it's a total clusterfuck. They're not easy to fix, you've got to "bad order" and set out the car, at least by regulation. This involves rerailing, finding a set-out track, and making all the moves to get everything back in order. You've also got to wait for carmen (who are understaffed) and management, which depending on the route, could be a long sit. If it's bad enough it'll shut down traffic for a couple of days, requiring significant diversions around it while the Class 1 pays out the ass for a third party to come clean it all up and rerail shit. None of the current infrastructure is built to deal with these train lengths, either, so everything moves slower. The fact the Surface Transportation Board had a hearing with the Class 1's, I think, is a pretty good indicator they're about as interested in moving goods as GE is in manufacturing. ^: Each coal car has two draw bars with +/- 2-3" about the same for shipping container cars (from eyeing it) of run built in. This varies with car, auto racks have way more run out. Opposing forces in the trainline will pull it apart, the more run to build the faster the opponent acceleration... This typically results in broken knuckles. But it is possible to just push cars off the rail with these forces, which is exacerbated by the doubled length.
- pas 5y ago
  Thanks for the interesting details! > None of the current infrastructure is built to deal with these train lengths, either, so everything moves slower. Is it due to extra freight demand caused by the recent surge in consumer demand? Or this was long way in the making, but the system's capacity seems to have basically topped out? (And any effort to move even more freight on this network will cost a lot more and cause a lot more pain and very likely fatalities for the humans involved?) What's the "solution"? Building more tracks? Running more but smaller trains? (But I guess the trains are already long to keep fuel costs down?)
  - brnaftr361 5y ago
    Here's the STB hearing. Timestamped to one of the more articulate old-head: https://youtu.be/Q0rk5tnrFqA?t=9300 https://youtu.be/Q0rk5tnrFqA?t=9300 I think their new-fangled methods are crippling their ability to service the surge. I think their reputation and their current working environment has cost them people. I think all this has exacerbated the problem. If you Google Surface Transportation Board you'll find several articles about C1s being implicated in kneecapping business. The megatrains are pretty old hat, they were being discussed while I was still in, 2017 or 2018. Shortly thereafter they started piloting the program. The problem is they just can't be accommodated, period. 150 car trains are bad enough, 270 cars and 6 engines is way worse. Sidings, yards, and loading facilities aren't built for it.

by pas 5y ago

redshirtrob 5y ago

I don't know if there's comparable data, but I can tell you the mining companies in north west Australia would routinely run 300+ car trains without incident. But these were very much a straight line from the mine to the port without much civilization in between.

r_hoods_ghost 5y ago

Well in the UK there were 11 derailments total in 2020-21. The UK has roughly ~10,000 miles of railway and the USA ~150,000. Probably not a good comparison tbh. EU wide would probably be more appropriate but I couldn't find anything. https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/1999/rail-safety-2020-2021.pdf https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/1999/rail-safety-2020-20...

hardware2win 5y ago
Indeed, 5 derailments per day sounds like a lot

brnaftr361 5y ago

It's just the forces of the trains. When it's not a derailment it's breaking them. They're doubling the running room for slack action^, for one. That's the least of the concern, but there's more potential for breakage because there's more potential for greater differences in velocity from one end of the train to the other. Topology also matters, previously consists here average 135 cars, but range from 115 to 150, they're 53' each. Usually they'll have 4-5 motors at 74' each. Suffice it to say, depending on the territory there can be huge force differentials generated which can break trains or rail, think cresting a grade on undulating hills. And you can "stringline" trains too, literally pull cars off the tracks, and it's exactly those forces that'd do it. And then there's the human element. Nobody knows when they're going to work, how long it's going to take, what kind of bullshit they're going to run into. You can get stuck for long periods of time away from home terminal, and the Class 1 doesn't care. And there's things like rules on how to walk. The environment that's been constructed isn't meant for human consumption and it's taking a toll on the workforce. There's reams of other shit to whinge about. And the derailments always matter, it's a total clusterfuck. They're not easy to fix, you've got to "bad order" and set out the car, at least by regulation. This involves rerailing, finding a set-out track, and making all the moves to get everything back in order. You've also got to wait for carmen (who are understaffed) and management, which depending on the route, could be a long sit. If it's bad enough it'll shut down traffic for a couple of days, requiring significant diversions around it while the Class 1 pays out the ass for a third party to come clean it all up and rerail shit. None of the current infrastructure is built to deal with these train lengths, either, so everything moves slower. The fact the Surface Transportation Board had a hearing with the Class 1's, I think, is a pretty good indicator they're about as interested in moving goods as GE is in manufacturing. ^: Each coal car has two draw bars with +/- 2-3" about the same for shipping container cars (from eyeing it) of run built in. This varies with car, auto racks have way more run out. Opposing forces in the trainline will pull it apart, the more run to build the faster the opponent acceleration... This typically results in broken knuckles. But it is possible to just push cars off the rail with these forces, which is exacerbated by the doubled length.

pas 5y ago
Thanks for the interesting details! > None of the current infrastructure is built to deal with these train lengths, either, so everything moves slower. Is it due to extra freight demand caused by the recent surge in consumer demand? Or this was long way in the making, but the system's capacity seems to have basically topped out? (And any effort to move even more freight on this network will cost a lot more and cause a lot more pain and very likely fatalities for the humans involved?) What's the "solution"? Building more tracks? Running more but smaller trains? (But I guess the trains are already long to keep fuel costs down?)
- brnaftr361 5y ago
  Here's the STB hearing. Timestamped to one of the more articulate old-head: https://youtu.be/Q0rk5tnrFqA?t=9300 https://youtu.be/Q0rk5tnrFqA?t=9300 I think their new-fangled methods are crippling their ability to service the surge. I think their reputation and their current working environment has cost them people. I think all this has exacerbated the problem. If you Google Surface Transportation Board you'll find several articles about C1s being implicated in kneecapping business. The megatrains are pretty old hat, they were being discussed while I was still in, 2017 or 2018. Shortly thereafter they started piloting the program. The problem is they just can't be accommodated, period. 150 car trains are bad enough, 270 cars and 6 engines is way worse. Sidings, yards, and loading facilities aren't built for it.