5 ms·

Make the battery removable, then you have an off-switch and a repairable device. For bonus points, use a battery in a standardized form factor so I can buy spar

by Zak 5y ago

Make the battery removable, then you have an off-switch and a repairable device. For bonus points, use a battery in a standardized form factor so I can buy spares. I know, I know, the industry doesn't want me to keep my device working longer than the lifespan of a Li-ion cell.

titzer 5y ago
ikr? They have these things now, they call them "AAA" batteries...holy heck, you can take them out, and they even make rechargeable ones. Like, if your thing doesn't work, you can just swap the batteries instead of waiting N hours for it to charge itself....what a concept.
- Steltek 5y ago
  Rechargeable AAAs are crap though. Power density sucks. Voltage level sucks (and voltage regulators will suck the battery dry before your micro does). And the form factor sucks. I'd sooner have a 18650-family (e.g. 14240 or 14500) become standard than a bunch of AAAs.
  - Zak 5y ago
    > Rechargeable AAAs are crap though. Not compared to alkalines, not since about 2005. Voltage regulation (i.e. a boost converter) plays well with NiMH rechargeables too, though not with alkalines. That's assuming one of them is an appropriate size and voltage for the application. If more than one starts to seem like a good idea, consider a larger cell, higher voltage chemistry, or both.
  - lelanthran 5y ago
    > Rechargeable AAAs are crap though. Power density sucks. Voltage level sucks (and voltage regulators will suck the battery dry before your micro does). And the form factor sucks. Not in my experience: our main TV is connected to a 2008 computer running Linux Mint that we use for netflix and amz prime. I've been using it in this way since 2016. The remote is an off-the-shelf wireless pointer thingy with a few buttons on it (works like a Wii controller) that takes 2x AAA batteries. I've been recharging those 2x AAA batteries since 1996, and it still works fine enough that I don't feel compelled to replace them.
  - buescher 5y ago
    Panasonic Eneloops and similar modern low-self-discharge NiMH batteries are really nice. Their capacity is not quite as high as alkalines, but their internal resistance is an order of magnitude lower. At loads over 100mA, they're a far superior battery in both ability to deliver power and effective capacity. They have low self-discharge, so you can charge them after using them instead of discovering you need to charge them before using them. And I've never had one leak, but I assume they can.
  - titzer 5y ago
    I use a lot of rechargeable AAAs and AAs. For AAA, 1100mAh are pretty good, which almost up to the ~1250mAh of an Energizer alkaline. For AA, there are 2800mAh rechargeables available, which is on par with an Energizer alkaline.
  - moonbug 5y ago
    Battery hipsterism. Oh HN, you keep giving.
    - Zak 5y ago
      It was a valid point. There's a significant performance/weight reason most of the devices with non-removable batteries and built-in charging are using Li-ion instead of NiMH. Getting a bunch of consumers used to buying spare Li-ion cells and using external chargers might be a non-starter, but it's possible to have both onboard charging and removable cells so the upgrade path is there for those who want it.
      - titzer 5y ago
        I've had a series of Canon powershot cameras that have all used more-or-less the same Li-ion cell design[1] and I've been able to swap batteries with them. They're big enough that third parties have even offered replacement batteries. There is probably room for standardization of a compact, rectangular, rechargeable battery of roughly those dimensions. Is someone pushing for it? [1] https://www.apotelyt.com/camera-power/canon-g7-x-mark-iii-battery https://www.apotelyt.com/camera-power/canon-g7-x-mark-iii-ba...
        Zak 5y ago
        I don't think anyone is pushing for that, though sometimes a company will design a device around another company's battery design. There's quite a bit of small photo/video lighting that uses Sony NP series camera batteries. Those are just a pair of 18650s in series inside a plastic box. It seems to me the size of the G7X could have been designed around a 14500 cell instead.
    - buescher 4y ago
      Thank goodness I haven't heard a hipster sing the praises of carbon-zinc "heavy duty" batteries from Harbor Freight and dollar stores... yet.
baq 5y ago
the real problem is the design team doesn't give two shits about neither users nor developers of the product... developers aren't treated as customers by design teams and then everybody is confused why the thing doesn't work. (hint: maybe it's stupid hard to make it work if you are actively prevented to be able to work on it?)
- lavela 5y ago
  the real problem is that you can't keep all those little features you'd wish for in your head, so while you are making a buying decision they don't factor in as much as the lower price achievable without those features.
  - Zak 5y ago
    That varies a lot based on product type, price point, and target market. For something long-lived and expensive, I will pay extra and accept a less sleek design for standardized removable batteries. I research most purchases of durable goods. Of course, I may not be the most profitable customer since I don't plan to buy a new widget every six months.
  - vjk800 5y ago
    This is the real problem. Otherwise the markets would have solved the crappy products problem a long time ago. When I use something at my home, I usually have a constant stream of minor annoyances that could easily be fixed by the manufacturer. However, when I'm shopping for a new product, I dont remember any of them.
    - wildmanx 5y ago
      The odd part is that for many people that's even the case if it's software _and_ they are programmers themselves _and_ it's open source. But they go complain instead of just fixing the minor annoyance.
  - bombcar 5y ago
    Perhaps we need government labels like we have on food - little boxes for common things like “battery: removable” or “on/off”.

by Zak 5y ago

titzer 5y ago

ikr? They have these things now, they call them "AAA" batteries...holy heck, you can take them out, and they even make rechargeable ones. Like, if your thing doesn't work, you can just swap the batteries instead of waiting N hours for it to charge itself....what a concept.

Steltek 5y ago
Rechargeable AAAs are crap though. Power density sucks. Voltage level sucks (and voltage regulators will suck the battery dry before your micro does). And the form factor sucks. I'd sooner have a 18650-family (e.g. 14240 or 14500) become standard than a bunch of AAAs.
- Zak 5y ago
  > Rechargeable AAAs are crap though. Not compared to alkalines, not since about 2005. Voltage regulation (i.e. a boost converter) plays well with NiMH rechargeables too, though not with alkalines. That's assuming one of them is an appropriate size and voltage for the application. If more than one starts to seem like a good idea, consider a larger cell, higher voltage chemistry, or both.
- lelanthran 5y ago
  > Rechargeable AAAs are crap though. Power density sucks. Voltage level sucks (and voltage regulators will suck the battery dry before your micro does). And the form factor sucks. Not in my experience: our main TV is connected to a 2008 computer running Linux Mint that we use for netflix and amz prime. I've been using it in this way since 2016. The remote is an off-the-shelf wireless pointer thingy with a few buttons on it (works like a Wii controller) that takes 2x AAA batteries. I've been recharging those 2x AAA batteries since 1996, and it still works fine enough that I don't feel compelled to replace them.
- buescher 5y ago
  Panasonic Eneloops and similar modern low-self-discharge NiMH batteries are really nice. Their capacity is not quite as high as alkalines, but their internal resistance is an order of magnitude lower. At loads over 100mA, they're a far superior battery in both ability to deliver power and effective capacity. They have low self-discharge, so you can charge them after using them instead of discovering you need to charge them before using them. And I've never had one leak, but I assume they can.
- titzer 5y ago
  I use a lot of rechargeable AAAs and AAs. For AAA, 1100mAh are pretty good, which almost up to the ~1250mAh of an Energizer alkaline. For AA, there are 2800mAh rechargeables available, which is on par with an Energizer alkaline.
- moonbug 5y ago
  Battery hipsterism. Oh HN, you keep giving.
  - Zak 5y ago
    It was a valid point. There's a significant performance/weight reason most of the devices with non-removable batteries and built-in charging are using Li-ion instead of NiMH. Getting a bunch of consumers used to buying spare Li-ion cells and using external chargers might be a non-starter, but it's possible to have both onboard charging and removable cells so the upgrade path is there for those who want it.
    - titzer 5y ago
      I've had a series of Canon powershot cameras that have all used more-or-less the same Li-ion cell design[1] and I've been able to swap batteries with them. They're big enough that third parties have even offered replacement batteries. There is probably room for standardization of a compact, rectangular, rechargeable battery of roughly those dimensions. Is someone pushing for it? [1] https://www.apotelyt.com/camera-power/canon-g7-x-mark-iii-battery https://www.apotelyt.com/camera-power/canon-g7-x-mark-iii-ba...
      - Zak 5y ago
        I don't think anyone is pushing for that, though sometimes a company will design a device around another company's battery design. There's quite a bit of small photo/video lighting that uses Sony NP series camera batteries. Those are just a pair of 18650s in series inside a plastic box. It seems to me the size of the G7X could have been designed around a 14500 cell instead.
  - buescher 4y ago
    Thank goodness I haven't heard a hipster sing the praises of carbon-zinc "heavy duty" batteries from Harbor Freight and dollar stores... yet.

baq 5y ago

the real problem is the design team doesn't give two shits about neither users nor developers of the product... developers aren't treated as customers by design teams and then everybody is confused why the thing doesn't work. (hint: maybe it's stupid hard to make it work if you are actively prevented to be able to work on it?)

lavela 5y ago
the real problem is that you can't keep all those little features you'd wish for in your head, so while you are making a buying decision they don't factor in as much as the lower price achievable without those features.
- Zak 5y ago
  That varies a lot based on product type, price point, and target market. For something long-lived and expensive, I will pay extra and accept a less sleek design for standardized removable batteries. I research most purchases of durable goods. Of course, I may not be the most profitable customer since I don't plan to buy a new widget every six months.
- vjk800 5y ago
  This is the real problem. Otherwise the markets would have solved the crappy products problem a long time ago. When I use something at my home, I usually have a constant stream of minor annoyances that could easily be fixed by the manufacturer. However, when I'm shopping for a new product, I dont remember any of them.
  - wildmanx 5y ago
    The odd part is that for many people that's even the case if it's software _and_ they are programmers themselves _and_ it's open source. But they go complain instead of just fixing the minor annoyance.
- bombcar 5y ago
  Perhaps we need government labels like we have on food - little boxes for common things like “battery: removable” or “on/off”.