6 ms·

> This is because they, one, don't listen to anyone ever; and two, never use the products they design. Oh, sure, there might be a user study or two. But they ne

by iamben 4y ago

> This is because they, one, don't listen to anyone ever; and two, never use the products they design. Oh, sure, there might be a user study or two. But they never actually have to live with or work with the damn things. I wonder the percentage of consumer (and business - have you ever used a POS in a pub?!) electronics this applies to? It's gotta be high 90s. I've lost track of the number of times I've lamented "did anyone actually use this?"

pm215 4y ago
A friend of a friend retired from the tech industry to become a joint-investor in a small chain of pubs. He ended up writing his own Linux-based POS software for the pub tills, AIUI...
thaumasiotes 4y ago
> I've lost track of the number of times I've lamented "did anyone actually use this?" We have a combination oven and microwave (yes...) that seems to have been designed with the primary purpose of enraging the owner. The microwave can only be set in 15 second increments. But you can fine-tune it, in five-second increments, by spinning a dial. Except that you can't do that while the oven is on. The microwave makes a noise while it's operating. When it's finished, it will beep unobtrusively and then continue to make the operating noise. You can stop it from making the operating noise by opening the door. The microwave can't be replaced, because it's part of the oven.
- adhesive_wombat 4y ago
  > The microwave can only be set in 15 second increments. But you can fine-tune it, in five-second increments, by spinning a dial Mine is similar, also a combi. You spin the dial and it will go up in 10 second increments to a point, then in minutes, then in 5 minutes, then ten minutes, etc. Fine, I get it, it's like floating point. But it starts doing 5 minutes at the 10 minute mark! So you can't do 11-14 minutes. Which is actually about right for some things in an oven. You also can't add more than 10 minutes to a short time without stopping the oven (this, I assume, is intended to be a safety thing to avoid being able to accidentally add hours of cooking without positive user intent). And I do wish it would just stop the fan once it stops cooking, but I suppose the electronics next to the hot oven don't suddenly need less cooling just because the hot metal box doesn't have food in it. I do like it though because it's much more efficient for small things than a big oven and I don't have space for a toaster oven and a microwave. And it has a much better UI for setting a delay start than the 6-button interface of the big oven.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - thaumasiotes 4y ago
    > Mine is similar, also a combi. > I do like it though because it's much more efficient for small things than a big oven and I don't have space for a toaster oven and a microwave. You may have gotten the wrong idea. This isn't a combination where the same box functions as an oven and a microwave. This is a microwave that is for no reason physically attached to a separate oven - it takes up all the space of a big oven plus a normally sized microwave. The only thing they share is the display panel. And yet that didn't stop anyone from disabling microwave functionality while the oven is on. There is absolutely no advantage to this compared to having an oven and a separate microwave, and many, many, many disadvantages. It continually boggles my mind that anyone ever designed, manufactured, or purchased this thing.
- caf 4y ago
  If "the operating noise" is the cooling fan for the magnetron, it keeps going when the time is up to cool it down. Mine does the same, but actually says "COOL" on the screen when it does so.
  - thaumasiotes 4y ago
    The problem with this is that it prevents you from knowing when the microwave has finished.
    - caf 4y ago
      The cooling fan isn't supposed to be an audible "microwave is on" alert. That's not its design function. Perhaps the actual audible alert on yours should be louder.
  - folmar 4y ago
    My old microwave oven has a fan that is on only when the microwaves are on. If that was possible in 1985 it can be made the same way now.
    - caf 4y ago
      No doubt it was some combination of lower power, physically larger or simply more prone to failure. Do you suppose the designers go to the trouble of a cool-down timer just for the hell of it?
      - folmar 4y ago
        I always use Reverse Hanlon's Razor, so I suppose they do it in bad faith. /s Actually I guess they both shave off weight/cost and design for built-in model first (that are naturally more heat-constrained) and make standalone variant as an afterthought.
    - LorenPechtel 4y ago
      It's more reliable if you connect the cooling fan to a thermostat rather than the power switch. Otherwise the hottest time is actually after you turn it off (as heat from the inside leaks to the outside but is no longer being cooled by the fan.)
- go_prodev 4y ago
  That must be frustrating, but was quite funny to read. I would happily invest in kitchen appliances that have a silent mode for apartments and shared living spaces. My microwave beeps at the end, and then beeps again 10 minutes later once the food has been removed. My old toaster beeped 5 times when the toast popped, which is unnecessary when the popping action is loud on it's own.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    You might be able to remove the “buzzer” or speaker in the device.
    - Foffle 4y ago
      If it's a regular piezo buzzer, just stick a small rare earth magnet to it. Instant silence, and doesn't damage anything!
      - bombcar 4y ago
        This is brilliant - I bet there's not too many sizes of piezo buzzer so someone could make little kits to sell on amazon et al ...
  - botdan 4y ago
    Have you looked to see if your microwave has a volume control menu? After years of listening to my microwave blare across the house I saw a tweet that informed me that most microwaves have a menu setting somewhere to control the volume and sure enough, my Frigidaire microwave actually does. I had just never thought to look.
- RHSeeger 4y ago
  > by spinning a dial When we moved into our current house, it had a microwave like that. When we replaced it, my primary requirements were 1. multiple fan speeds, and 2. a nice, simple touch pad for entering the time; preferably one where you didn't need to press a button before starting to enter the cooking time. The dial thing is... infuriating. It never once found a situation where it made using the device better, and in most situations it made it worse.
  - dpark 4y ago
    > The dial thing is... infuriating. It never once found a situation where it made using the device better, and in most situations it made it worse. Digital dials can be nice in some cases. My parents had an oven with a dial for the temperature. Spin it either way to increase or decrease the temperature by extra 5 degrees. I loved it. It was so much better than the touchpad design. The range of actual temperatures in an oven is pretty small and I found this much more friendly than punching in the temperature, getting it wrong, cancelling, and punching it in again. It was a “finger tip” dial so it was quick to spin. Probably horrible for people with bad arthritis or other hand mobility issues, though. I wouldn’t mind a microwave with a similar dial for time. Again, the actual range of times in typical use (for me) is not that high. The design described with a two tier system for adjusting time seems moronic though.
    - thaumasiotes 4y ago
      > The range of actual temperatures in an oven is pretty small The range of temperatures you use is about 200 degrees?
      - dpark 4y ago
        Maybe 250. 300-550. I rarely go up to 550 and never below 300 that I can recall. With 5 degree increments, that’s only 50 clicks, fewer if the system is speed sensitive.
    - RHSeeger 4y ago
      For temperature, I can see it working... though I don't see how it would actually be _better_ than tapping in the number. For the microwave time, it was a horrible experience pretty much every time I interacted with the device. A keypad is simple, intuitive, and easy to use.
- wildmanx 4y ago
  > The microwave makes a noise while it's operating. When it's finished, it will beep unobtrusively and then continue to make the operating noise. You can stop it from making the operating noise by opening the door. Check out Chesterton's Fence.
  - chrisoverzero 4y ago
    Tell us why you think it’s relevant.
    - wildmanx 4y ago
      Sure. Sibling comments to my comment explain that the continued "operating noise" is a cooling mechanism that's required by the microwave oven. So, it wouldn't be a good idea to just rip that part out of the design. Even if it may be annoying. Perhaps a better explanation is needed, like some models showing "cool" in the display. But it's per se not a design oversight. Chesterton's Fence is about not changing things before understanding what led to the current state of affairs. I think the principle easily extends to complaining as well.
      - thaumasiotes 4y ago
        No, absolutely not. This is not a problem that other microwaves have. It seriously impairs the functioning of the microwave. Chesterton's Fence tells us that there is no cost to eliminating this ridiculously awful functionality, because other microwaves already don't do it. An explanation doesn't help in any way. The solution is to stop misbehaving.
        wildmanx 4y ago
        Maybe those other microwaves have a different design that doesn't make it necessary. So, sure, you can re-design the microwave oven, but that may entail significantly more work than to just deactivate the fan. I could criticize cars with combustion engines for having one and being so noisy/stinky/... Then I could go on claiming that they should just turn them off, cause there are cars without combustion engines which are less noisy/stinky/... I'd be missing that there is more to it than just turning off the engine. I'd need to replace it with something else, like an EV. Maybe that did not exist yet when that car was build. So, claiming that this old Ford from 1970 having a combustion engine is stupid because "this is not a problem that other cars have" is missing the point. I could go rip the engine out because I don't like that it's noisy/stinky/... But I'm in for a surprise here. The vehicle won't move anymore. Something I'd have understood had I followed the principle put forward by Chesterton's Fence. > Chesterton's Fence tells us that there is no cost to eliminating this ridiculously awful functionality No. It tells you to first understand what you are doing. Blindly claiming something misses that part.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
donmcronald 4y ago
> did anyone actually use this? Are you me? Lol. Sometimes I use software where I wonder "am I the only one that bought this and tried to use it?" I think part of the issue is that requirements get written by people who have no experience. They've never done the job the software will be used to augment and they don't know anything about software development. Then the requirements are used to outsource the actual design and development. Using POS as an example (in a country with tipping culture). Imagine if a requirements document for the payment system said "must include an option to tip", but the design and development was done in a country where tipping culture isn't a thing. You'd likely end up with the "tip" option hidden away in a hard to reach place while everyone who uses the software knows it should be prominent and easy to use and could immediately tell you the design is poor.

by iamben 4y ago

pm215 4y ago

A friend of a friend retired from the tech industry to become a joint-investor in a small chain of pubs. He ended up writing his own Linux-based POS software for the pub tills, AIUI...

thaumasiotes 4y ago

> I've lost track of the number of times I've lamented "did anyone actually use this?" We have a combination oven and microwave (yes...) that seems to have been designed with the primary purpose of enraging the owner. The microwave can only be set in 15 second increments. But you can fine-tune it, in five-second increments, by spinning a dial. Except that you can't do that while the oven is on. The microwave makes a noise while it's operating. When it's finished, it will beep unobtrusively and then continue to make the operating noise. You can stop it from making the operating noise by opening the door. The microwave can't be replaced, because it's part of the oven.

adhesive_wombat 4y ago
> The microwave can only be set in 15 second increments. But you can fine-tune it, in five-second increments, by spinning a dial Mine is similar, also a combi. You spin the dial and it will go up in 10 second increments to a point, then in minutes, then in 5 minutes, then ten minutes, etc. Fine, I get it, it's like floating point. But it starts doing 5 minutes at the 10 minute mark! So you can't do 11-14 minutes. Which is actually about right for some things in an oven. You also can't add more than 10 minutes to a short time without stopping the oven (this, I assume, is intended to be a safety thing to avoid being able to accidentally add hours of cooking without positive user intent). And I do wish it would just stop the fan once it stops cooking, but I suppose the electronics next to the hot oven don't suddenly need less cooling just because the hot metal box doesn't have food in it. I do like it though because it's much more efficient for small things than a big oven and I don't have space for a toaster oven and a microwave. And it has a much better UI for setting a delay start than the 6-button interface of the big oven.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- thaumasiotes 4y ago
  > Mine is similar, also a combi. > I do like it though because it's much more efficient for small things than a big oven and I don't have space for a toaster oven and a microwave. You may have gotten the wrong idea. This isn't a combination where the same box functions as an oven and a microwave. This is a microwave that is for no reason physically attached to a separate oven - it takes up all the space of a big oven plus a normally sized microwave. The only thing they share is the display panel. And yet that didn't stop anyone from disabling microwave functionality while the oven is on. There is absolutely no advantage to this compared to having an oven and a separate microwave, and many, many, many disadvantages. It continually boggles my mind that anyone ever designed, manufactured, or purchased this thing.
caf 4y ago
If "the operating noise" is the cooling fan for the magnetron, it keeps going when the time is up to cool it down. Mine does the same, but actually says "COOL" on the screen when it does so.
- thaumasiotes 4y ago
  The problem with this is that it prevents you from knowing when the microwave has finished.
  - caf 4y ago
    The cooling fan isn't supposed to be an audible "microwave is on" alert. That's not its design function. Perhaps the actual audible alert on yours should be louder.
- folmar 4y ago
  My old microwave oven has a fan that is on only when the microwaves are on. If that was possible in 1985 it can be made the same way now.
  - caf 4y ago
    No doubt it was some combination of lower power, physically larger or simply more prone to failure. Do you suppose the designers go to the trouble of a cool-down timer just for the hell of it?
    - folmar 4y ago
      I always use Reverse Hanlon's Razor, so I suppose they do it in bad faith. /s Actually I guess they both shave off weight/cost and design for built-in model first (that are naturally more heat-constrained) and make standalone variant as an afterthought.
  - LorenPechtel 4y ago
    It's more reliable if you connect the cooling fan to a thermostat rather than the power switch. Otherwise the hottest time is actually after you turn it off (as heat from the inside leaks to the outside but is no longer being cooled by the fan.)
go_prodev 4y ago
That must be frustrating, but was quite funny to read. I would happily invest in kitchen appliances that have a silent mode for apartments and shared living spaces. My microwave beeps at the end, and then beeps again 10 minutes later once the food has been removed. My old toaster beeped 5 times when the toast popped, which is unnecessary when the popping action is loud on it's own.
- bombcar 4y ago
  You might be able to remove the “buzzer” or speaker in the device.
  - Foffle 4y ago
    If it's a regular piezo buzzer, just stick a small rare earth magnet to it. Instant silence, and doesn't damage anything!
    - bombcar 4y ago
      This is brilliant - I bet there's not too many sizes of piezo buzzer so someone could make little kits to sell on amazon et al ...
- botdan 4y ago
  Have you looked to see if your microwave has a volume control menu? After years of listening to my microwave blare across the house I saw a tweet that informed me that most microwaves have a menu setting somewhere to control the volume and sure enough, my Frigidaire microwave actually does. I had just never thought to look.
RHSeeger 4y ago
> by spinning a dial When we moved into our current house, it had a microwave like that. When we replaced it, my primary requirements were 1. multiple fan speeds, and 2. a nice, simple touch pad for entering the time; preferably one where you didn't need to press a button before starting to enter the cooking time. The dial thing is... infuriating. It never once found a situation where it made using the device better, and in most situations it made it worse.
- dpark 4y ago
  > The dial thing is... infuriating. It never once found a situation where it made using the device better, and in most situations it made it worse. Digital dials can be nice in some cases. My parents had an oven with a dial for the temperature. Spin it either way to increase or decrease the temperature by extra 5 degrees. I loved it. It was so much better than the touchpad design. The range of actual temperatures in an oven is pretty small and I found this much more friendly than punching in the temperature, getting it wrong, cancelling, and punching it in again. It was a “finger tip” dial so it was quick to spin. Probably horrible for people with bad arthritis or other hand mobility issues, though. I wouldn’t mind a microwave with a similar dial for time. Again, the actual range of times in typical use (for me) is not that high. The design described with a two tier system for adjusting time seems moronic though.
  - thaumasiotes 4y ago
    > The range of actual temperatures in an oven is pretty small The range of temperatures you use is about 200 degrees?
    - dpark 4y ago
      Maybe 250. 300-550. I rarely go up to 550 and never below 300 that I can recall. With 5 degree increments, that’s only 50 clicks, fewer if the system is speed sensitive.
  - RHSeeger 4y ago
    For temperature, I can see it working... though I don't see how it would actually be _better_ than tapping in the number. For the microwave time, it was a horrible experience pretty much every time I interacted with the device. A keypad is simple, intuitive, and easy to use.
wildmanx 4y ago
> The microwave makes a noise while it's operating. When it's finished, it will beep unobtrusively and then continue to make the operating noise. You can stop it from making the operating noise by opening the door. Check out Chesterton's Fence.
- chrisoverzero 4y ago
  Tell us why you think it’s relevant.
  - wildmanx 4y ago
    Sure. Sibling comments to my comment explain that the continued "operating noise" is a cooling mechanism that's required by the microwave oven. So, it wouldn't be a good idea to just rip that part out of the design. Even if it may be annoying. Perhaps a better explanation is needed, like some models showing "cool" in the display. But it's per se not a design oversight. Chesterton's Fence is about not changing things before understanding what led to the current state of affairs. I think the principle easily extends to complaining as well.
    - thaumasiotes 4y ago
      No, absolutely not. This is not a problem that other microwaves have. It seriously impairs the functioning of the microwave. Chesterton's Fence tells us that there is no cost to eliminating this ridiculously awful functionality, because other microwaves already don't do it. An explanation doesn't help in any way. The solution is to stop misbehaving.
      - wildmanx 4y ago
        Maybe those other microwaves have a different design that doesn't make it necessary. So, sure, you can re-design the microwave oven, but that may entail significantly more work than to just deactivate the fan. I could criticize cars with combustion engines for having one and being so noisy/stinky/... Then I could go on claiming that they should just turn them off, cause there are cars without combustion engines which are less noisy/stinky/... I'd be missing that there is more to it than just turning off the engine. I'd need to replace it with something else, like an EV. Maybe that did not exist yet when that car was build. So, claiming that this old Ford from 1970 having a combustion engine is stupid because "this is not a problem that other cars have" is missing the point. I could go rip the engine out because I don't like that it's noisy/stinky/... But I'm in for a surprise here. The vehicle won't move anymore. Something I'd have understood had I followed the principle put forward by Chesterton's Fence. > Chesterton's Fence tells us that there is no cost to eliminating this ridiculously awful functionality No. It tells you to first understand what you are doing. Blindly claiming something misses that part.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

donmcronald 4y ago

> did anyone actually use this? Are you me? Lol. Sometimes I use software where I wonder "am I the only one that bought this and tried to use it?" I think part of the issue is that requirements get written by people who have no experience. They've never done the job the software will be used to augment and they don't know anything about software development. Then the requirements are used to outsource the actual design and development. Using POS as an example (in a country with tipping culture). Imagine if a requirements document for the payment system said "must include an option to tip", but the design and development was done in a country where tipping culture isn't a thing. You'd likely end up with the "tip" option hidden away in a hard to reach place while everyone who uses the software knows it should be prominent and easy to use and could immediately tell you the design is poor.