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A number of people have commented on how this model of work-study is unrealistic because it relies on endowments for it to work. I think the argument can be fl

A number of people have commented on how this model of work-study is unrealistic because it relies on endowments for it to work. I think the argument can be flipped. The problem is that of incentives and the wrong culture dont allow the debt-free, work-study program to be more widespread, by leveraging endowments. Take for example a place like harvard. Consider that the objective of a harvard portfolio manager is to grow its prestige and carry incentive payout, by increasing its AUM and reinvesting returns. The primary incentive of the fund manager is not to generate income for student use. You then have the same problems on the administration side. Their chief objective is not to lower overhead for students, but to increase admin count, payroll, nonstudent "research". Arguably this culture permeates down to alumni giving which is why oftentimes gifts are restricted. Alumni do not want gifts to fund admin largesse. Administrations with clear mission statements ('debt free students') would have far more leverage in fundraising towards that goal. So to complain that using endowment for tuition is "cheating" is missing the point: endownment is a critical to bridge the gap between student labor value and total tuition. Instead, we should look at universities with higher endowments with deep suspicion. Is it a culture of misaligned incentives that is resulting in a huge debt burden to students ? Why are too many US universities failing to provide a debt-free path to kids; when the work-centric universities in this article prove that debt-free graduation is an attainable goal?

mold_aid 4y ago
Right, but your primary example - and this is a condition (as in "symptom") that dominates most media coverage of US higher ed - is Harvard. Harvard is not a good example, as it's not representative. A "culture of misaligned incentives?" OK, what concrete connections between endowment, culture, and the "alignment" of "incentives" do you think apply to, say, UMass? _Why are too many US universities failing to provide a debt-free path to kids; when the work-centric universities in this article prove that debt-free graduation is an attainable goal?_ All universities have a debt-free path to students (these are not kids, they are adults). It is called "paying up front" or "paying when you receive a bill." We obviously know that is not feasible, but I don't look for changes to the dealership model because Subaru does not provide "a debt-free path to car ownership." I'm not sure I accept that work-centric universities prove that debt-free graduation is an attainable goal. The story is an advertisement for a college. It is published by a news source that seems to have a lot of stories critical of colleges. The story does not say specifically that all students graduate debt-free; for students who graduate Hard Work U (I think the "you" is misplaced) and take loans, the average debt at graduation seems to be no different than some CUNY universities. Hard Work U forbids federal loans - not "offer a path to debt-free" but forbid it. Federal loans may be subsidized - and gosh, wonder why they started with the fed before moving on to private loans? Wonder how their revenue streams work? You will notice also that there is no graduate program, where a considerable amount of student debt is held. Also, from what I can tell, CotOzarks' annual tuition is considerably higher than the in-state tuition charged at the state school I work at, which has been consistently defunded at the state level. We service nearly 10,000 secular students; "Hard Work U" (this is branding, dude) services 1.5k deeply religious students and still advertise as a liberal arts college! Land-grant unis, regional comprehensives, small liberal arts schools, cannot at all replicate their...unique business model. But we can call ourselves universities. I wonder why it's not "University" of the Ozarks? They're accredited by HLC, so I don't think there's a quality issue. But they do advertise as a liberal arts school and seem to have a lot of these "jobless majors" I keep hearing about. The historical and material conditions that cause students to accrue debt are not going to be answered by "just offer summer jobs." The idea that "too many" universities (how many, precisely?) have some "debt-free" option that they could just flip a switch on...I mean, yes, If I were a university, I would simply provide a debt-free option for students! C'mon. Most of my students have jobs during the semester; do you assume they would drop them if we offered private work against their tuition? Would you be surprised if the answer was "no"?
- IG_Semmelweiss 4y ago
  Jobless majors are not the topic. The debate in this thread is not about educational outcomes, but net cost and net debt, and how we got there. You are free to spend time playing video games and not learning to prepare yourself for a career. That is a choice one makes. Outcome can be the basis for a claim for fraud - but that battle is already being fought elsewhere. The true issue is, what incentives are at play that result in so much debt? Why cant you say thay "1 summer job is enough to pay for a year of tuition" anymore (this used to be the norm in the 70s!) Whats preventing your students from working the summer to pay for tuition? It isnt students. They are working all the same. What incentives does the school have that are contrary to that goal
t0suj4 4y ago
If I understand the US college debt trap correctly, the universities can raise prices however they want as long as the government can guarantee that banks loan the money to students the universities can pocket. So universities have incentives to convince the students to take on as much debt as possible.
- IG_Semmelweiss 4y ago
  You are correct For the sake of thoughtful discussion, i chose to omit the topic of debt trap. Your comment makes it painfully obvious that any attempt to tackle incentives discussion must by definition include all incetives , such as (unlimited) backstop of debt.

mold_aid 4y ago

Right, but your primary example - and this is a condition (as in "symptom") that dominates most media coverage of US higher ed - is Harvard. Harvard is not a good example, as it's not representative. A "culture of misaligned incentives?" OK, what concrete connections between endowment, culture, and the "alignment" of "incentives" do you think apply to, say, UMass? _Why are too many US universities failing to provide a debt-free path to kids; when the work-centric universities in this article prove that debt-free graduation is an attainable goal?_ All universities have a debt-free path to students (these are not kids, they are adults). It is called "paying up front" or "paying when you receive a bill." We obviously know that is not feasible, but I don't look for changes to the dealership model because Subaru does not provide "a debt-free path to car ownership." I'm not sure I accept that work-centric universities prove that debt-free graduation is an attainable goal. The story is an advertisement for a college. It is published by a news source that seems to have a lot of stories critical of colleges. The story does not say specifically that all students graduate debt-free; for students who graduate Hard Work U (I think the "you" is misplaced) and take loans, the average debt at graduation seems to be no different than some CUNY universities. Hard Work U forbids federal loans - not "offer a path to debt-free" but forbid it. Federal loans may be subsidized - and gosh, wonder why they started with the fed before moving on to private loans? Wonder how their revenue streams work? You will notice also that there is no graduate program, where a considerable amount of student debt is held. Also, from what I can tell, CotOzarks' annual tuition is considerably higher than the in-state tuition charged at the state school I work at, which has been consistently defunded at the state level. We service nearly 10,000 secular students; "Hard Work U" (this is branding, dude) services 1.5k deeply religious students and still advertise as a liberal arts college! Land-grant unis, regional comprehensives, small liberal arts schools, cannot at all replicate their...unique business model. But we can call ourselves universities. I wonder why it's not "University" of the Ozarks? They're accredited by HLC, so I don't think there's a quality issue. But they do advertise as a liberal arts school and seem to have a lot of these "jobless majors" I keep hearing about. The historical and material conditions that cause students to accrue debt are not going to be answered by "just offer summer jobs." The idea that "too many" universities (how many, precisely?) have some "debt-free" option that they could just flip a switch on...I mean, yes, If I were a university, I would simply provide a debt-free option for students! C'mon. Most of my students have jobs during the semester; do you assume they would drop them if we offered private work against their tuition? Would you be surprised if the answer was "no"?

IG_Semmelweiss 4y ago
Jobless majors are not the topic. The debate in this thread is not about educational outcomes, but net cost and net debt, and how we got there. You are free to spend time playing video games and not learning to prepare yourself for a career. That is a choice one makes. Outcome can be the basis for a claim for fraud - but that battle is already being fought elsewhere. The true issue is, what incentives are at play that result in so much debt? Why cant you say thay "1 summer job is enough to pay for a year of tuition" anymore (this used to be the norm in the 70s!) Whats preventing your students from working the summer to pay for tuition? It isnt students. They are working all the same. What incentives does the school have that are contrary to that goal

t0suj4 4y ago

If I understand the US college debt trap correctly, the universities can raise prices however they want as long as the government can guarantee that banks loan the money to students the universities can pocket. So universities have incentives to convince the students to take on as much debt as possible.

IG_Semmelweiss 4y ago
You are correct For the sake of thoughtful discussion, i chose to omit the topic of debt trap. Your comment makes it painfully obvious that any attempt to tackle incentives discussion must by definition include all incetives , such as (unlimited) backstop of debt.