9 ms·

(Background: I work in product design/new product development, and conceivably might have designed this thing! If any of those were still designed in the Wester

(Background: I work in product design/new product development, and conceivably might have designed this thing! If any of those were still designed in the Western world. Which they aren't. I have designed some stuff like it, though!) Oh, great, this debate again! I shall use this post as ammunition next time I am arguing with our stupid design team about why we need an off switch on the stupid product we are designing, because it is a giant pain to live with devices you cannot turn off. (It is especially fun to put something together for the Very First Time, then realize you can't turn it off... and you need to turn it off because it's the Very First Time this thing has ever existed at all, and it isn't quite right, and you need to fix something. But it can't be turned off, and this is somehow by design.) (Our design team will never listen. This is because they, one, don't listen to anyone ever; and two, never use the products they design. Oh, sure, there might be a user study or two. But they never actually have to live with or work with the damn things.) > They never seem to just use the bluetooth module as the sole microcontroller We actually do this! It works pretty well. > and also it's not like microcontrollers are expensive these days. with a blobbed-on IC of some 8-bit custom non-programmable thing, they're probably spending like 1-2 cents each Yeah I wish we could get those prices. But we don't do COB (chip-on-board) and we only use microcontrollers we can get and read datasheets for, so we pay at least 20x that price. Maybe that's why we don't have any clients?

nicoburns 4y ago
> This is because they… never use the products they design. Oh, sure, there might be a user study or two. But they never actually have to live with or work with the damn things. Yeah, I do software and Ive found the same thing: if I’m building it, then I’m actually the first user of the software, and I have all sorts of feedback for the designers. Luckily I’ve worked with some great designers who were usually more than happy to adjust the designs though.
raverbashing 4y ago
> and we only use microcontrollers we can get and read datasheets for, so we pay at least 20x that price. Yeah, I see what you mean. And even if google translate can help, there are of course other problems 20x might be the actual cheaper option
- sverhagen 4y ago
  Sure, but you have a manager who thinks... against better judgement... again... that they are gonna sell 20 million units of the thing, so their math suggests that you should... yep... prematurely optimize.
iamben 4y ago
> This is because they, one, don't listen to anyone ever; and two, never use the products they design. Oh, sure, there might be a user study or two. But they never actually have to live with or work with the damn things. I wonder the percentage of consumer (and business - have you ever used a POS in a pub?!) electronics this applies to? It's gotta be high 90s. I've lost track of the number of times I've lamented "did anyone actually use this?"
- pm215 4y ago
  A friend of a friend retired from the tech industry to become a joint-investor in a small chain of pubs. He ended up writing his own Linux-based POS software for the pub tills, AIUI...
- thaumasiotes 4y ago
  > I've lost track of the number of times I've lamented "did anyone actually use this?" We have a combination oven and microwave (yes...) that seems to have been designed with the primary purpose of enraging the owner. The microwave can only be set in 15 second increments. But you can fine-tune it, in five-second increments, by spinning a dial. Except that you can't do that while the oven is on. The microwave makes a noise while it's operating. When it's finished, it will beep unobtrusively and then continue to make the operating noise. You can stop it from making the operating noise by opening the door. The microwave can't be replaced, because it's part of the oven.
  - adhesive_wombat 4y ago
    > The microwave can only be set in 15 second increments. But you can fine-tune it, in five-second increments, by spinning a dial Mine is similar, also a combi. You spin the dial and it will go up in 10 second increments to a point, then in minutes, then in 5 minutes, then ten minutes, etc. Fine, I get it, it's like floating point. But it starts doing 5 minutes at the 10 minute mark! So you can't do 11-14 minutes. Which is actually about right for some things in an oven. You also can't add more than 10 minutes to a short time without stopping the oven (this, I assume, is intended to be a safety thing to avoid being able to accidentally add hours of cooking without positive user intent). And I do wish it would just stop the fan once it stops cooking, but I suppose the electronics next to the hot oven don't suddenly need less cooling just because the hot metal box doesn't have food in it. I do like it though because it's much more efficient for small things than a big oven and I don't have space for a toaster oven and a microwave. And it has a much better UI for setting a delay start than the 6-button interface of the big oven.
michaelt 4y ago
> Yeah I wish we could get those prices. You might enjoy [1] about a microcontroller that's ~3 cents, in quantity 10. Of course it's only one-time-programmable, and generally pretty basic. And that's a pre-supply-chain-crisis price - these days prices have risen to 9 cents [2]. Still very cheap though! [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAGnsnO7w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAGnsnO7w [2] https://www.lcsc.com/product-detail/Microcontroller-Units-MCUs-MPUs-SOCs_PADAUK-Tech-PMS150C-U06_C168658.html https://www.lcsc.com/product-detail/Microcontroller-Units-MC...
- LeifCarrotson 4y ago
  Have you developed anything with that microcontroller, or tried to use that datasheet? An ATTiny10 or PIC16F is so much better documented, so much better supported, so much more featureful, and so much better in every way that the average small-volume product design house will never make up the 40-cent price difference per part. How many development hours or support hours can you bill before you're penny-wise and pound foolish?
  - nottorp 4y ago
    Even at a higher level than microcontrollers, i've worked with arm chips whose only documentation was random posts in chinese characters on sites i had never heard about before. They were cheap, but for the small volume devices i was working on dev time became significant.
  - mmoskal 4y ago
    Because the chips are so simple, I actually found the datasheets for Padauks to be sufficient. In particular, I don't think it's any more confusing than say STM32 or even NRF52 datasheets, mostly because the chips are so much easier and thus the datasheets are sooooo much shorter. Granted, I have not worked with 8-bit MCUs other than Padauks. Their compiler/macro-assembler also seems to be working just fine, once you get past the UI from early 2000s. The error messages that must have been auto-translated from Traditional Chinese, but you squint a little bit and get the idea.
hexo 4y ago
I would fire the whole team immediately if they really dont listen. Noone wants another e-waste.
- chrisandchris 4y ago
  I am pretty sure the market disagrees with you.
  - hexo 4y ago
    Environment disagrees with "market". "Market" takes whats available. Not producing ewaste means "market" cannot consume it. Simple.
    - Beltalowda 4y ago
      Sure, but the point is that you can keep making these things and people will keep buying them, so "noone wants another e-waste" is clearly not true. Discussions about "the market", its effects on the environment, etc. are all important and worth having, but don't really have much bearing on whether or not "people want another e-waste".
      - AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
        I mean, if you look at it that way then people really want corrupt politicians and exploitative businesses because they keep electing the former and paying the latter. I think people really don't want e-waste. They don't want oceans (and now bodies) full of plastic. The industries have just done a great job of convincing them nothing can be done about the problem.
        Beltalowda 4y ago
        > I think people really don't want e-waste. They don't want oceans (and now bodies) full of plastic. The industries have just done a great job of convincing them nothing can be done about the problem. I think it's a bit more complex than that; a lot of properties that distinguish a "solid product" from "e-waste" are not at all obvious when you buy it, and it's not illegal and it is cheaper, and people got to make rent too, so... yeah. I agree: in the abstract most people don't "want e-waste", but they also look at costs and other factors, and they do "want e-waste" once you factor that in. It probably shouldn't be strictly illegal too, but now you have a situation where: 1. Consumers blame industry and say that government should do something. 2. Industry says they're just producing what consumers want and that it's not illegal. 3. Government says they want consumers and industry to have free choice and call for different consumer actions and "self-regulation". So basically, everyone is pointing at everyone else, and nothing gets done. And the arguments from the various sides aren't necessarily bad or malicious either: regulation does come with a cost, and cheap stuff does have its use. Personally I think factoring in external environmental costs in to the product price would be good, but it's not so easy as it will make things more expensive, and already enough people are struggling to make ends meet (as the current high inflation rates show) so it all ties in to a lot of other issues as well.
Zak 4y ago
Make the battery removable, then you have an off-switch and a repairable device. For bonus points, use a battery in a standardized form factor so I can buy spares. I know, I know, the industry doesn't want me to keep my device working longer than the lifespan of a Li-ion cell.
- titzer 4y ago
  ikr? They have these things now, they call them "AAA" batteries...holy heck, you can take them out, and they even make rechargeable ones. Like, if your thing doesn't work, you can just swap the batteries instead of waiting N hours for it to charge itself....what a concept.
  - Steltek 4y ago
    Rechargeable AAAs are crap though. Power density sucks. Voltage level sucks (and voltage regulators will suck the battery dry before your micro does). And the form factor sucks. I'd sooner have a 18650-family (e.g. 14240 or 14500) become standard than a bunch of AAAs.
    - Zak 4y ago
      > Rechargeable AAAs are crap though. Not compared to alkalines, not since about 2005. Voltage regulation (i.e. a boost converter) plays well with NiMH rechargeables too, though not with alkalines. That's assuming one of them is an appropriate size and voltage for the application. If more than one starts to seem like a good idea, consider a larger cell, higher voltage chemistry, or both.
    - lelanthran 4y ago
      > Rechargeable AAAs are crap though. Power density sucks. Voltage level sucks (and voltage regulators will suck the battery dry before your micro does). And the form factor sucks. Not in my experience: our main TV is connected to a 2008 computer running Linux Mint that we use for netflix and amz prime. I've been using it in this way since 2016. The remote is an off-the-shelf wireless pointer thingy with a few buttons on it (works like a Wii controller) that takes 2x AAA batteries. I've been recharging those 2x AAA batteries since 1996, and it still works fine enough that I don't feel compelled to replace them.
paulcole 4y ago
> I shall use this post as ammunition next time I am arguing with our stupid design team So many red flags here.
wildmanx 4y ago
> (Our design team will never listen. This is because they, one, don't listen to anyone ever; and two, never use the products they design. Oh, sure, there might be a user study or two. But they never actually have to live with or work with the damn things.) If you don't mind me asking .. if it's that bad, why do you still work there? Is there a shortage in suitable jobs? (Honest question..)
geoduck14 4y ago
baybal2 4y ago
Can you tell whether you work in a product design company, or an engineering company? Does that come from clients? I used the same 3-in-1 latch circuit for power on/off, pairing, and software power off for 12 years. A good enhancement mode NMOS FET can be as good as a physical switch at low voltages. If you really need nano-amp level leakage current AND very low drop, you can consider turning to beefy depletion mode devices, which gate the user will discharge with the button press. A nice benefit is that you can directly sense the button press with an MCU. I once even did a bluetooth mouse with this "hardware" switch, and a graceful shutdown: we sense voltage on the buck capacitor, and detect when the battery disconnect triggers. The few microfarads in the capacitor are enough to send the last update with the 0% battery level, and a disconnect command.
- exmadscientist 4y ago
  > Can you tell whether you work in a product design company, or an engineering company? Both! There aren't many of those out there, so I probably just outed myself. Oh well. Keep it quiet please? > A good enhancement mode NMOS FET can be as good as a physical switch at low voltages. Yes, it can work very well. You are correct that it need not be a physical switch. But it still does nothing if it is never brought out to the device's interface. And physical switches are still preferable if the software is broken, as it often happens to be during development. > you can consider turning to beefy depletion mode devices Depletion mode devices are not cost effective. If you think they are, point me to one cheaper than the LND150. (And, yes, I do know how to use them. Many designers do not.)
  - baybal2 4y ago
noobermin 4y ago
I hope you don't mind this sentiment but you seem like one of the "good ones." A lot of designers seemingly do things like this for some insular reasons rather than for market reasons (better for consumers or it gives them an edge). Just another example how some developments in tech are top-down rather than bottom up from market demand.

nicoburns 4y ago

> This is because they… never use the products they design. Oh, sure, there might be a user study or two. But they never actually have to live with or work with the damn things. Yeah, I do software and Ive found the same thing: if I’m building it, then I’m actually the first user of the software, and I have all sorts of feedback for the designers. Luckily I’ve worked with some great designers who were usually more than happy to adjust the designs though.

raverbashing 4y ago

> and we only use microcontrollers we can get and read datasheets for, so we pay at least 20x that price. Yeah, I see what you mean. And even if google translate can help, there are of course other problems 20x might be the actual cheaper option

sverhagen 4y ago
Sure, but you have a manager who thinks... against better judgement... again... that they are gonna sell 20 million units of the thing, so their math suggests that you should... yep... prematurely optimize.

iamben 4y ago

> This is because they, one, don't listen to anyone ever; and two, never use the products they design. Oh, sure, there might be a user study or two. But they never actually have to live with or work with the damn things. I wonder the percentage of consumer (and business - have you ever used a POS in a pub?!) electronics this applies to? It's gotta be high 90s. I've lost track of the number of times I've lamented "did anyone actually use this?"

pm215 4y ago
A friend of a friend retired from the tech industry to become a joint-investor in a small chain of pubs. He ended up writing his own Linux-based POS software for the pub tills, AIUI...
thaumasiotes 4y ago
> I've lost track of the number of times I've lamented "did anyone actually use this?" We have a combination oven and microwave (yes...) that seems to have been designed with the primary purpose of enraging the owner. The microwave can only be set in 15 second increments. But you can fine-tune it, in five-second increments, by spinning a dial. Except that you can't do that while the oven is on. The microwave makes a noise while it's operating. When it's finished, it will beep unobtrusively and then continue to make the operating noise. You can stop it from making the operating noise by opening the door. The microwave can't be replaced, because it's part of the oven.
- adhesive_wombat 4y ago
  > The microwave can only be set in 15 second increments. But you can fine-tune it, in five-second increments, by spinning a dial Mine is similar, also a combi. You spin the dial and it will go up in 10 second increments to a point, then in minutes, then in 5 minutes, then ten minutes, etc. Fine, I get it, it's like floating point. But it starts doing 5 minutes at the 10 minute mark! So you can't do 11-14 minutes. Which is actually about right for some things in an oven. You also can't add more than 10 minutes to a short time without stopping the oven (this, I assume, is intended to be a safety thing to avoid being able to accidentally add hours of cooking without positive user intent). And I do wish it would just stop the fan once it stops cooking, but I suppose the electronics next to the hot oven don't suddenly need less cooling just because the hot metal box doesn't have food in it. I do like it though because it's much more efficient for small things than a big oven and I don't have space for a toaster oven and a microwave. And it has a much better UI for setting a delay start than the 6-button interface of the big oven.

michaelt 4y ago

> Yeah I wish we could get those prices. You might enjoy [1] about a microcontroller that's ~3 cents, in quantity 10. Of course it's only one-time-programmable, and generally pretty basic. And that's a pre-supply-chain-crisis price - these days prices have risen to 9 cents [2]. Still very cheap though! [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAGnsnO7w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAGnsnO7w [2] https://www.lcsc.com/product-detail/Microcontroller-Units-MCUs-MPUs-SOCs_PADAUK-Tech-PMS150C-U06_C168658.html https://www.lcsc.com/product-detail/Microcontroller-Units-MC...

LeifCarrotson 4y ago
Have you developed anything with that microcontroller, or tried to use that datasheet? An ATTiny10 or PIC16F is so much better documented, so much better supported, so much more featureful, and so much better in every way that the average small-volume product design house will never make up the 40-cent price difference per part. How many development hours or support hours can you bill before you're penny-wise and pound foolish?
- nottorp 4y ago
  Even at a higher level than microcontrollers, i've worked with arm chips whose only documentation was random posts in chinese characters on sites i had never heard about before. They were cheap, but for the small volume devices i was working on dev time became significant.
- mmoskal 4y ago
  Because the chips are so simple, I actually found the datasheets for Padauks to be sufficient. In particular, I don't think it's any more confusing than say STM32 or even NRF52 datasheets, mostly because the chips are so much easier and thus the datasheets are sooooo much shorter. Granted, I have not worked with 8-bit MCUs other than Padauks. Their compiler/macro-assembler also seems to be working just fine, once you get past the UI from early 2000s. The error messages that must have been auto-translated from Traditional Chinese, but you squint a little bit and get the idea.

hexo 4y ago

I would fire the whole team immediately if they really dont listen. Noone wants another e-waste.

chrisandchris 4y ago
I am pretty sure the market disagrees with you.
- hexo 4y ago
  Environment disagrees with "market". "Market" takes whats available. Not producing ewaste means "market" cannot consume it. Simple.
  - Beltalowda 4y ago
    Sure, but the point is that you can keep making these things and people will keep buying them, so "noone wants another e-waste" is clearly not true. Discussions about "the market", its effects on the environment, etc. are all important and worth having, but don't really have much bearing on whether or not "people want another e-waste".
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
      I mean, if you look at it that way then people really want corrupt politicians and exploitative businesses because they keep electing the former and paying the latter. I think people really don't want e-waste. They don't want oceans (and now bodies) full of plastic. The industries have just done a great job of convincing them nothing can be done about the problem.
      - Beltalowda 4y ago
        > I think people really don't want e-waste. They don't want oceans (and now bodies) full of plastic. The industries have just done a great job of convincing them nothing can be done about the problem. I think it's a bit more complex than that; a lot of properties that distinguish a "solid product" from "e-waste" are not at all obvious when you buy it, and it's not illegal and it is cheaper, and people got to make rent too, so... yeah. I agree: in the abstract most people don't "want e-waste", but they also look at costs and other factors, and they do "want e-waste" once you factor that in. It probably shouldn't be strictly illegal too, but now you have a situation where: 1. Consumers blame industry and say that government should do something. 2. Industry says they're just producing what consumers want and that it's not illegal. 3. Government says they want consumers and industry to have free choice and call for different consumer actions and "self-regulation". So basically, everyone is pointing at everyone else, and nothing gets done. And the arguments from the various sides aren't necessarily bad or malicious either: regulation does come with a cost, and cheap stuff does have its use. Personally I think factoring in external environmental costs in to the product price would be good, but it's not so easy as it will make things more expensive, and already enough people are struggling to make ends meet (as the current high inflation rates show) so it all ties in to a lot of other issues as well.

Zak 4y ago

Make the battery removable, then you have an off-switch and a repairable device. For bonus points, use a battery in a standardized form factor so I can buy spares. I know, I know, the industry doesn't want me to keep my device working longer than the lifespan of a Li-ion cell.

titzer 4y ago
ikr? They have these things now, they call them "AAA" batteries...holy heck, you can take them out, and they even make rechargeable ones. Like, if your thing doesn't work, you can just swap the batteries instead of waiting N hours for it to charge itself....what a concept.
- Steltek 4y ago
  Rechargeable AAAs are crap though. Power density sucks. Voltage level sucks (and voltage regulators will suck the battery dry before your micro does). And the form factor sucks. I'd sooner have a 18650-family (e.g. 14240 or 14500) become standard than a bunch of AAAs.
  - Zak 4y ago
    > Rechargeable AAAs are crap though. Not compared to alkalines, not since about 2005. Voltage regulation (i.e. a boost converter) plays well with NiMH rechargeables too, though not with alkalines. That's assuming one of them is an appropriate size and voltage for the application. If more than one starts to seem like a good idea, consider a larger cell, higher voltage chemistry, or both.
  - lelanthran 4y ago
    > Rechargeable AAAs are crap though. Power density sucks. Voltage level sucks (and voltage regulators will suck the battery dry before your micro does). And the form factor sucks. Not in my experience: our main TV is connected to a 2008 computer running Linux Mint that we use for netflix and amz prime. I've been using it in this way since 2016. The remote is an off-the-shelf wireless pointer thingy with a few buttons on it (works like a Wii controller) that takes 2x AAA batteries. I've been recharging those 2x AAA batteries since 1996, and it still works fine enough that I don't feel compelled to replace them.

paulcole 4y ago

> I shall use this post as ammunition next time I am arguing with our stupid design team So many red flags here.

wildmanx 4y ago

> (Our design team will never listen. This is because they, one, don't listen to anyone ever; and two, never use the products they design. Oh, sure, there might be a user study or two. But they never actually have to live with or work with the damn things.) If you don't mind me asking .. if it's that bad, why do you still work there? Is there a shortage in suitable jobs? (Honest question..)

geoduck14 4y ago

baybal2 4y ago

Can you tell whether you work in a product design company, or an engineering company? Does that come from clients? I used the same 3-in-1 latch circuit for power on/off, pairing, and software power off for 12 years. A good enhancement mode NMOS FET can be as good as a physical switch at low voltages. If you really need nano-amp level leakage current AND very low drop, you can consider turning to beefy depletion mode devices, which gate the user will discharge with the button press. A nice benefit is that you can directly sense the button press with an MCU. I once even did a bluetooth mouse with this "hardware" switch, and a graceful shutdown: we sense voltage on the buck capacitor, and detect when the battery disconnect triggers. The few microfarads in the capacitor are enough to send the last update with the 0% battery level, and a disconnect command.

exmadscientist 4y ago
> Can you tell whether you work in a product design company, or an engineering company? Both! There aren't many of those out there, so I probably just outed myself. Oh well. Keep it quiet please? > A good enhancement mode NMOS FET can be as good as a physical switch at low voltages. Yes, it can work very well. You are correct that it need not be a physical switch. But it still does nothing if it is never brought out to the device's interface. And physical switches are still preferable if the software is broken, as it often happens to be during development. > you can consider turning to beefy depletion mode devices Depletion mode devices are not cost effective. If you think they are, point me to one cheaper than the LND150. (And, yes, I do know how to use them. Many designers do not.)
- baybal2 4y ago

noobermin 4y ago

I hope you don't mind this sentiment but you seem like one of the "good ones." A lot of designers seemingly do things like this for some insular reasons rather than for market reasons (better for consumers or it gives them an edge). Just another example how some developments in tech are top-down rather than bottom up from market demand.