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> small teams trying to support the whole stack with their javascript bootcamp training are the biggest reason so much tech is absolute garbage these days The

> small teams trying to support the whole stack with their javascript bootcamp training are the biggest reason so much tech is absolute garbage these days The lazy stereotyping is inaccurate, caustic, and uncalled-for. I've worked with several bootcampers, and nearly all of them have been entirely capable.

compton93 4y ago
I think it depends. I've seen bootcampers who are motivated by being a Software Engineer at FAANG on 500k yet they don't understand why turning off your computer stops programs from running. But I've also met bootcampers who spent several years writing bots for runescape or coding in their spare time and are using the bootcamps as a way in to the industry.
- brundolf 4y ago
  Which just supports the point that the stereotype doesn't hold up, and only serves to discourage and exclude capable people who may already have impostor-syndrome.
- w4ffl35 4y ago
  I'd argue the years writing bots and coding in their spare time are what benefited them and the bootcamps just helped them pass the interview... which is exactly the same thing I've been saying in all my comments already.
w4ffl35 4y ago
I've contested in a separate comment that there are likely some talented individuals who took a boot camp course. Really doesn't say much for bootcamps though. My anecdotal experiences differ from your anecdotal experiences. My experience has been that people were trained to pass interviews not keep jobs.
- brundolf 4y ago
  The difference is that I'm not claiming bootcampers are broadly exceptional, either; I'm saying I don't have enough data to tell you whether or not someone will be a good engineer based on whether or not they went to a bootcamp. I know my anecdotes are limited, and I'm not trying to make broad statements based on them.
  - w4ffl35 4y ago
    I'm speaking less about the individual and more about the method of education. I don't think someone should go from zero experience, to 6 or 12 month bootcamp, to lead engineer at their first job. Something very wrong with "the industry" as this is becoming more typical in recent years from what I've experienced.
    - brundolf 4y ago
      And to that I would argue: that's a hiring problem, not a learning problem. Based on my anecdotes (I guess I am getting into drawing broad conclusions now), good bootcamps are a good way to turn someone into an entry-level engineer who's equipped to start contributing value and then learn more as they go. If they got hired immediately as a lead engineer and weren't ready for it (which they wouldn't be, if the bootcamp was their only experience), that's the company's problem. I would add too that there's a huge gap in quality between the best and the worst bootcamps; there are some that consistently crank out totally capable junior engineers, but I've read horror stories about others that are outright scams. It's possible we need an accreditation process of some sort.
      - w4ffl35 4y ago
        But now I feel like we've got to review my original statement. I don't believe I ever said people who went to bootcamp shouldn't be hired or anything to that effect... I think that small teams (often made of bootcampers with relatively no experience) are disastrous. One Jr Dev won't take down the ship but a whole crew of Jr's with senior titles and authority will at least slow you down to a crawl. In recent years I've worked with teams who are largely made of bootcampers and Jr devs. As I've said from the start, I've been in startup land for a long time now and it's usually all about getting by on a shoestring. I fully understand the financial reasoning behind it, but I dont think the people running these companies have thought far enough ahead and I strongly doubt that any of the places I've worked in recent years will be around even 4 years from now.
jhugo 4y ago
I think you're missing the point of the comment. There is no judgement on their capability there, merely an observation that a JS bootcamp probably doesn't adequately prepare you to manage a typical startup's entire tech stack, and if you try to do so with only that training/experience, the result might not be very good quality.
- w4ffl35 4y ago
  Exactly thank you.

compton93 4y ago

I think it depends. I've seen bootcampers who are motivated by being a Software Engineer at FAANG on 500k yet they don't understand why turning off your computer stops programs from running. But I've also met bootcampers who spent several years writing bots for runescape or coding in their spare time and are using the bootcamps as a way in to the industry.

brundolf 4y ago
Which just supports the point that the stereotype doesn't hold up, and only serves to discourage and exclude capable people who may already have impostor-syndrome.
w4ffl35 4y ago
I'd argue the years writing bots and coding in their spare time are what benefited them and the bootcamps just helped them pass the interview... which is exactly the same thing I've been saying in all my comments already.

w4ffl35 4y ago

I've contested in a separate comment that there are likely some talented individuals who took a boot camp course. Really doesn't say much for bootcamps though. My anecdotal experiences differ from your anecdotal experiences. My experience has been that people were trained to pass interviews not keep jobs.

brundolf 4y ago
The difference is that I'm not claiming bootcampers are broadly exceptional, either; I'm saying I don't have enough data to tell you whether or not someone will be a good engineer based on whether or not they went to a bootcamp. I know my anecdotes are limited, and I'm not trying to make broad statements based on them.
- w4ffl35 4y ago
  I'm speaking less about the individual and more about the method of education. I don't think someone should go from zero experience, to 6 or 12 month bootcamp, to lead engineer at their first job. Something very wrong with "the industry" as this is becoming more typical in recent years from what I've experienced.
  - brundolf 4y ago
    And to that I would argue: that's a hiring problem, not a learning problem. Based on my anecdotes (I guess I am getting into drawing broad conclusions now), good bootcamps are a good way to turn someone into an entry-level engineer who's equipped to start contributing value and then learn more as they go. If they got hired immediately as a lead engineer and weren't ready for it (which they wouldn't be, if the bootcamp was their only experience), that's the company's problem. I would add too that there's a huge gap in quality between the best and the worst bootcamps; there are some that consistently crank out totally capable junior engineers, but I've read horror stories about others that are outright scams. It's possible we need an accreditation process of some sort.
    - w4ffl35 4y ago
      But now I feel like we've got to review my original statement. I don't believe I ever said people who went to bootcamp shouldn't be hired or anything to that effect... I think that small teams (often made of bootcampers with relatively no experience) are disastrous. One Jr Dev won't take down the ship but a whole crew of Jr's with senior titles and authority will at least slow you down to a crawl. In recent years I've worked with teams who are largely made of bootcampers and Jr devs. As I've said from the start, I've been in startup land for a long time now and it's usually all about getting by on a shoestring. I fully understand the financial reasoning behind it, but I dont think the people running these companies have thought far enough ahead and I strongly doubt that any of the places I've worked in recent years will be around even 4 years from now.

jhugo 4y ago

I think you're missing the point of the comment. There is no judgement on their capability there, merely an observation that a JS bootcamp probably doesn't adequately prepare you to manage a typical startup's entire tech stack, and if you try to do so with only that training/experience, the result might not be very good quality.

w4ffl35 4y ago
Exactly thank you.