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Nickel-Zinc is probably closer to reality. Sad that there’s so little talk about NiZn batteries.

by _hypx 4y ago

coryrc 4y ago
Because the dendrite problem has not been solved, and specific weight and efficiency is lower than lithium. (descending order of problems IMO).
- _hypx 4y ago
  It has been solved in modern cell designs. A lot of this is just outdated criticism. For stationary energy storage, you don't need li-ion batteries at all.
  - coryrc 4y ago
    That's what every company says, until they're in the field for a while then start dying. Also, nickel is worse than lithium (metal) in about every way, so lifepo4 batteries are better on every dimension than NiZn: specific capacity, environmental impact, lifespan, specific power...
    - _hypx 4y ago
      These problems seem to be really solved now. They’ve already are in the field and none of those doomsday scenarios seem to be happening. NiZn batteries are actually recyclable, where as LiFePO₄ batteries are not.
      - coryrc 4y ago
        You're ignoring that they are worse on every metric but below-freezing charging than lithium batteries: NiZn: 70 to 85Wh / kg Lifepo4: > 180 NiZn: 1000 charge-discharge cycles Lifepo4: 3000 cycles NiZn: significant self-discharge Lifepo4: negligible self-discharge NiZn: nickel is more expensive than all the metals in lifepo4 and more environmentally damaging to extract There's nothing good about them, even if the dendrite problem was solved (which I doubt). Lifepo4 can be recycled just fine, provided there's actually enough of them to be recycled, which won't be for a long time since they last so long.
        _hypx 4y ago
        NiZn almost certainly cheaper than LiFePO₄, at least once they get to scale. Problems like self-discharge or cycle-life likely vary depending on cell design. I'm sure you can design a cell that has less of these problems. It is also much easier to recycle than LiFePO₄ batteries, which is a big advantage. LiFePO₄ are basically never recycled in practice. Should be noted that no one is suggest that NiZn is the end-all be-all battery chemistry. It is just a neat idea that is worth investing in, and will work in a lot of circumstances.
        coryrc 4y ago
        Nickel is $12/lb, lithium $31/lb. Nickel atomic weight is 59, lithium is 7. $12 * 59/7 == $101 There's one electron per nickel atom and one electron per lithium atom. Nickel is 3x more expensive than lithium on that basis alone. The only useful place I see for NiZn is drop-in replacement for alkaline cells, not mass storage. Nickel is the one of the most expensive part of lithium batteries: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/08/nickel-price-surge-could-threaten-automakers-ev-plans.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/08/nickel-price-surge-could-thr... I'm not sure where you get the idea that it is cheaper. > LiFePO₄ are basically never recycled in practice. Because they haven't reached end-of-life yet. No one is going to recycle perfectly good batteries.
jeffbee 4y ago
In static service even lead-acid batteries are great.
- coryrc 4y ago
  Poor efficiency and limited lifespan, ongoing maintenance costs drive the costs up. Lithium iron phosphate is cheaper unless you don't use the batteries (i.e. emergency standby).

Nickel-Zinc is probably closer to reality. Sad that there’s so little talk about NiZn batteries.

by _hypx 4y ago

Nickel-Zinc is probably closer to reality. Sad that there’s so little talk about NiZn batteries.

Because the dendrite problem has not been solved, and specific weight and efficiency is lower than lithium. (descending order of problems IMO).

_hypx 4y ago
It has been solved in modern cell designs. A lot of this is just outdated criticism. For stationary energy storage, you don't need li-ion batteries at all.
- coryrc 4y ago
  That's what every company says, until they're in the field for a while then start dying. Also, nickel is worse than lithium (metal) in about every way, so lifepo4 batteries are better on every dimension than NiZn: specific capacity, environmental impact, lifespan, specific power...
  - _hypx 4y ago
    These problems seem to be really solved now. They’ve already are in the field and none of those doomsday scenarios seem to be happening. NiZn batteries are actually recyclable, where as LiFePO₄ batteries are not.
    - coryrc 4y ago
      You're ignoring that they are worse on every metric but below-freezing charging than lithium batteries: NiZn: 70 to 85Wh / kg Lifepo4: > 180 NiZn: 1000 charge-discharge cycles Lifepo4: 3000 cycles NiZn: significant self-discharge Lifepo4: negligible self-discharge NiZn: nickel is more expensive than all the metals in lifepo4 and more environmentally damaging to extract There's nothing good about them, even if the dendrite problem was solved (which I doubt). Lifepo4 can be recycled just fine, provided there's actually enough of them to be recycled, which won't be for a long time since they last so long.
      - _hypx 4y ago
        NiZn almost certainly cheaper than LiFePO₄, at least once they get to scale. Problems like self-discharge or cycle-life likely vary depending on cell design. I'm sure you can design a cell that has less of these problems. It is also much easier to recycle than LiFePO₄ batteries, which is a big advantage. LiFePO₄ are basically never recycled in practice. Should be noted that no one is suggest that NiZn is the end-all be-all battery chemistry. It is just a neat idea that is worth investing in, and will work in a lot of circumstances.
        coryrc 4y ago
        Nickel is $12/lb, lithium $31/lb. Nickel atomic weight is 59, lithium is 7. $12 * 59/7 == $101 There's one electron per nickel atom and one electron per lithium atom. Nickel is 3x more expensive than lithium on that basis alone. The only useful place I see for NiZn is drop-in replacement for alkaline cells, not mass storage. Nickel is the one of the most expensive part of lithium batteries: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/08/nickel-price-surge-could-threaten-automakers-ev-plans.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/08/nickel-price-surge-could-thr... I'm not sure where you get the idea that it is cheaper. > LiFePO₄ are basically never recycled in practice. Because they haven't reached end-of-life yet. No one is going to recycle perfectly good batteries.

jeffbee 4y ago

In static service even lead-acid batteries are great.

coryrc 4y ago
Poor efficiency and limited lifespan, ongoing maintenance costs drive the costs up. Lithium iron phosphate is cheaper unless you don't use the batteries (i.e. emergency standby).