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I am hoping for Sodium based batteries breakthrough more than increased lithium mining. All those static grid storage don’t need weight advantages of lithium. N

I am hoping for Sodium based batteries breakthrough more than increased lithium mining. All those static grid storage don’t need weight advantages of lithium. Neither home storage.

evandijk70 4y ago
Note that the Tesla Powerwall is already quite heavy: 97 kg (250 lb). A sodium based battery will double that, which would make the logistics of transport and installation harder. So weight is not totally irrelevant for home storage.
fartcannon 4y ago
Expect groups with lithium claims to interfere with cheaper competitive elements.
- shiftpgdn 4y ago
  Every single pumpjack well in Texas is pulling up brine water extremely rich with lithium that could be cheaply extracted with evap pools. It just hasn’t been profitable until now. Lithium typically isn’t mined like gold, silver or diamonds, with a handful of exceptions.
  - fartcannon 4y ago
    Oh, OK, so expect the oil companies to interfere with alternatives then.
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      Ideally, you'd buy these wells from O&G companies at distressed prices using ESG funding and repurpose them for lithium production.
      - fartcannon 4y ago
        A quick google search suggests that sodium is 1000x more abundant than lithium. Will distressed prices be 1000x lower?
      - shiftpgdn 4y ago
        You actually don't even need to buy the well. Currently they pay to haul the brine water away and reinject it into a disposal well.
- epistasis 4y ago
  I think that it's going to be hard to interfere that way, they'll be too busy making money hand over fist from lithium. The grid storage market, which sodium would serve, tends to be far more price sensitive since the storage is not attached to a massive amount of other tech that is sold primarily based on marketing and emotion, which is what sells cars. Grid storage is pure industrial economics. I bet lithium miners and lithium battery manufacturers will be happy to hand over the grid storage market for the next decade, as vehicle battery demand will keep far ahead of vehicle battery supply.
_hypx 4y ago
Nickel-Zinc is probably closer to reality. Sad that there’s so little talk about NiZn batteries.
- coryrc 4y ago
  Because the dendrite problem has not been solved, and specific weight and efficiency is lower than lithium. (descending order of problems IMO).
  - _hypx 4y ago
    It has been solved in modern cell designs. A lot of this is just outdated criticism. For stationary energy storage, you don't need li-ion batteries at all.
    - coryrc 4y ago
      That's what every company says, until they're in the field for a while then start dying. Also, nickel is worse than lithium (metal) in about every way, so lifepo4 batteries are better on every dimension than NiZn: specific capacity, environmental impact, lifespan, specific power...
      - _hypx 4y ago
        These problems seem to be really solved now. They’ve already are in the field and none of those doomsday scenarios seem to be happening. NiZn batteries are actually recyclable, where as LiFePO₄ batteries are not.
        coryrc 4y ago
        You're ignoring that they are worse on every metric but below-freezing charging than lithium batteries: NiZn: 70 to 85Wh / kg Lifepo4: > 180 NiZn: 1000 charge-discharge cycles Lifepo4: 3000 cycles NiZn: significant self-discharge Lifepo4: negligible self-discharge NiZn: nickel is more expensive than all the metals in lifepo4 and more environmentally damaging to extract There's nothing good about them, even if the dendrite problem was solved (which I doubt). Lifepo4 can be recycled just fine, provided there's actually enough of them to be recycled, which won't be for a long time since they last so long.
KennyBlanken 4y ago
Iron flow batteries are already in commercial use. For example: https://essinc.com https://essinc.com The 'cells' cost practically nothing to manufacture and utilize a membrane already common in lithium ion battery manufacturing, and there's nothing dangerous or toxic in the battery system. It's iron (in various oxidation states), salt, and water. It's been a while since I looked at the whitepapers (which they've since pulled) but I think the secret sauce was how they managed the electrolyte's pH level.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Ballas 4y ago
  What is the energy density of these batteries? Last time I checked, it was infeasible to replicate something like a powerwall in even 10x the volume. Which means it is a non-starter for EV.
  - johnny22 4y ago
    GP says "All those static grid storage don’t need weight advantages of lithium. Neither home storage." so it might have been in that context, thus not relevant to EV

I am hoping for Sodium based batteries breakthrough more than increased lithium mining. All those static grid storage don’t need weight advantages of lithium. Neither home storage.

evandijk70 4y ago

Note that the Tesla Powerwall is already quite heavy: 97 kg (250 lb). A sodium based battery will double that, which would make the logistics of transport and installation harder. So weight is not totally irrelevant for home storage.

fartcannon 4y ago

Expect groups with lithium claims to interfere with cheaper competitive elements.

shiftpgdn 4y ago
Every single pumpjack well in Texas is pulling up brine water extremely rich with lithium that could be cheaply extracted with evap pools. It just hasn’t been profitable until now. Lithium typically isn’t mined like gold, silver or diamonds, with a handful of exceptions.
- fartcannon 4y ago
  Oh, OK, so expect the oil companies to interfere with alternatives then.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Ideally, you'd buy these wells from O&G companies at distressed prices using ESG funding and repurpose them for lithium production.
    - fartcannon 4y ago
      A quick google search suggests that sodium is 1000x more abundant than lithium. Will distressed prices be 1000x lower?
    - shiftpgdn 4y ago
      You actually don't even need to buy the well. Currently they pay to haul the brine water away and reinject it into a disposal well.
epistasis 4y ago
I think that it's going to be hard to interfere that way, they'll be too busy making money hand over fist from lithium. The grid storage market, which sodium would serve, tends to be far more price sensitive since the storage is not attached to a massive amount of other tech that is sold primarily based on marketing and emotion, which is what sells cars. Grid storage is pure industrial economics. I bet lithium miners and lithium battery manufacturers will be happy to hand over the grid storage market for the next decade, as vehicle battery demand will keep far ahead of vehicle battery supply.

_hypx 4y ago

Nickel-Zinc is probably closer to reality. Sad that there’s so little talk about NiZn batteries.

coryrc 4y ago
Because the dendrite problem has not been solved, and specific weight and efficiency is lower than lithium. (descending order of problems IMO).
- _hypx 4y ago
  It has been solved in modern cell designs. A lot of this is just outdated criticism. For stationary energy storage, you don't need li-ion batteries at all.
  - coryrc 4y ago
    That's what every company says, until they're in the field for a while then start dying. Also, nickel is worse than lithium (metal) in about every way, so lifepo4 batteries are better on every dimension than NiZn: specific capacity, environmental impact, lifespan, specific power...
    - _hypx 4y ago
      These problems seem to be really solved now. They’ve already are in the field and none of those doomsday scenarios seem to be happening. NiZn batteries are actually recyclable, where as LiFePO₄ batteries are not.
      - coryrc 4y ago
        You're ignoring that they are worse on every metric but below-freezing charging than lithium batteries: NiZn: 70 to 85Wh / kg Lifepo4: > 180 NiZn: 1000 charge-discharge cycles Lifepo4: 3000 cycles NiZn: significant self-discharge Lifepo4: negligible self-discharge NiZn: nickel is more expensive than all the metals in lifepo4 and more environmentally damaging to extract There's nothing good about them, even if the dendrite problem was solved (which I doubt). Lifepo4 can be recycled just fine, provided there's actually enough of them to be recycled, which won't be for a long time since they last so long.

KennyBlanken 4y ago

Iron flow batteries are already in commercial use. For example: https://essinc.com https://essinc.com The 'cells' cost practically nothing to manufacture and utilize a membrane already common in lithium ion battery manufacturing, and there's nothing dangerous or toxic in the battery system. It's iron (in various oxidation states), salt, and water. It's been a while since I looked at the whitepapers (which they've since pulled) but I think the secret sauce was how they managed the electrolyte's pH level.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Ballas 4y ago
What is the energy density of these batteries? Last time I checked, it was infeasible to replicate something like a powerwall in even 10x the volume. Which means it is a non-starter for EV.
- johnny22 4y ago
  GP says "All those static grid storage don’t need weight advantages of lithium. Neither home storage." so it might have been in that context, thus not relevant to EV