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We’re not in an armchair. This is our country; they’re responsible to us.

sfe22 4y ago
That is just in popular culture. In theory and reality, there in no need for your or any other American’s blessing for the feds, congress, president or even judges to exist and have power.
- icambron 4y ago
  This is moving the goalposts: "it's inappropriate for you to have an opinion" vs "you are a powerless peon, so ha". Also, I don't know what you mean by "in theory"; government by the people is very much the basis of government here.
  - sfe22 4y ago
    It mentions “by the people” however the roles and the power exists without people’s continued consent, which makes the words worthless.
xvector 4y ago
And they are responsible for protecting us too. They have far more information and understanding regarding our enemies than we could ever have. What makes you think that you could possibly be qualified to comment on the necessity and efficacy of the program when you lack the experience and day-to-day responsibilities that they have? Would you trust grandma with cybersecurity? It's the same principle here. No one here knows anything about national security and defense, so maybe we should stop judging programs that have been deemed to be extraordinarily effective when deployed against (non-citizen) enemies of state. Obviously, the discussion gets a bit thornier when citizens are involved, but that is not the case here.
- raxxorraxor 4y ago
  Better be thorough with that or maybe such things make people want to bomb a high rise or two. Cynical yes, but a realistic consequence of ideas like that. The career as a lawyer didn't seem to influence Obama on this decision very much.
- icambron 4y ago
  It’s like any other job requiring specialized skills. Imagine a plumber came over to your house and did a bunch of stuff, and when he was done, there were a bunch of weird pipes running through your house and you could hear water gurgling in the wall. And he says “it’s incredibly effective”. Do you say, “sure, I mean, I’m not a qualified plumber”? No, at the very least, you’d demand he convince you. A foundational element of democracy is that government functions are accountable to the citizenry.
  - xvector 4y ago
    The plumber example doesn't work because the stakes are trivially. Lives are at stake with national defense, so we are willing to accept greater extremes if it is what is necessary and effective at protecting us.
    - icambron 4y ago
      You have this backward. There being more at stake is precisely why we need better oversight and accountability.

That is just in popular culture. In theory and reality, there in no need for your or any other American’s blessing for the feds, congress, president or even judges to exist and have power.

icambron 4y ago
This is moving the goalposts: "it's inappropriate for you to have an opinion" vs "you are a powerless peon, so ha". Also, I don't know what you mean by "in theory"; government by the people is very much the basis of government here.
- sfe22 4y ago
  It mentions “by the people” however the roles and the power exists without people’s continued consent, which makes the words worthless.

xvector 4y ago

And they are responsible for protecting us too. They have far more information and understanding regarding our enemies than we could ever have. What makes you think that you could possibly be qualified to comment on the necessity and efficacy of the program when you lack the experience and day-to-day responsibilities that they have? Would you trust grandma with cybersecurity? It's the same principle here. No one here knows anything about national security and defense, so maybe we should stop judging programs that have been deemed to be extraordinarily effective when deployed against (non-citizen) enemies of state. Obviously, the discussion gets a bit thornier when citizens are involved, but that is not the case here.

raxxorraxor 4y ago
Better be thorough with that or maybe such things make people want to bomb a high rise or two. Cynical yes, but a realistic consequence of ideas like that. The career as a lawyer didn't seem to influence Obama on this decision very much.
icambron 4y ago
It’s like any other job requiring specialized skills. Imagine a plumber came over to your house and did a bunch of stuff, and when he was done, there were a bunch of weird pipes running through your house and you could hear water gurgling in the wall. And he says “it’s incredibly effective”. Do you say, “sure, I mean, I’m not a qualified plumber”? No, at the very least, you’d demand he convince you. A foundational element of democracy is that government functions are accountable to the citizenry.
- xvector 4y ago
  The plumber example doesn't work because the stakes are trivially. Lives are at stake with national defense, so we are willing to accept greater extremes if it is what is necessary and effective at protecting us.
  - icambron 4y ago
    You have this backward. There being more at stake is precisely why we need better oversight and accountability.