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I've seen a similar effect in a subset of people that get super into psychedelics. In some cases, they seem to lead to a hyper inflated ego. > Yet a growing bo

I've seen a similar effect in a subset of people that get super into psychedelics. In some cases, they seem to lead to a hyper inflated ego. > Yet a growing body of research suggests that such stories may be surprisingly common, with one study from 2019 showing that at least 25% of regular meditators have experienced adverse events, from panic attacks and depression to an unsettling sense of “dissociation”. The 25% number is pretty striking, if true. You see people recommending meditation without reservation, and discounting adverse effects as "exceptionally rare". Over the years I've begun to see more and more stories of people having deeply destabilizing experiences with meditation, and it concerns me how quickly people dismiss that possibility. There's even an attitude of "oh, that's a normal part of the process, just keep working through it and you'll come out the other side". But there's usually no informed consent going into a practice that this might happen. (And going back to psychedelics -- I have a similar complaint about people's attitudes around "bad trips". Psychonauts like to say "there's no such thing as a bad trip, only difficult ones", but I think that dangerously discounts how destabilizing trips can be sometimes.)

potatoman22 4y ago
Who's to say that meditation caused these adverse events? Perhaps some of those events would've happened regardless of if the person mediates.
nprateem 4y ago
I've been reading Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha and the author makes the same point about informed consent. It's widely known in various traditions meditation can mess you up. I think he quotes someone saying "better not to start if you're not going to finish" or you may end up in a bad place for a long time.
- Trasmatta 4y ago
  > It's widely known in various traditions meditation can mess you up Yeah, and the interesting thing is that in many Eastern traditions, meditation wasn't ever even recommended for the average person. And those that did do it, did so in an environment with teachers and safeguards. The McMindfulness fad is missing almost all of that, and I'm starting to see more and more stories of people hitting a dangerous wall without the cultural support they need to navigate to the other side. Sam Harris is one of the current major proponents of meditation in the West, and I've heard him say "even if meditation were bad for people, I would still recommend they do it". I think that's irresponsible advice.
  - maroonblazer 4y ago
    > Sam Harris is one of the current major proponents of meditation in the West, and I've heard him say "even if meditation were bad for people, I would still recommend they do it". I think that's irresponsible advice. I've been using Harris' "Waking Up" app, to great success, for a few years now and your anecdote is uncharacteristic of his guidance. Where did he say this?
    - Trasmatta 4y ago
      I don't have a source, but I've heard him say it on his podcast before. I realize it's mostly hearsay since I can't provide a source.
jackpeterfletch 4y ago
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/cover-story/id1594675355 https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/cover-story/id15946753... The initial episode covers a story closer to a cult. But later this podcast reflects a lot of what you’ve mentioned anecdotally with respect to to modern psychedelic research.
BiteCode_dev 4y ago
> The 25% number is pretty striking, if true. You see people recommending meditation without reservation, and discounting adverse effects as "exceptionally rare". Over the years I've begun to see more and more stories of people having deeply destabilizing experiences with meditation, and it concerns me how quickly people dismiss that possibility. There's even an attitude of "oh, that's a normal part of the process, just keep working through it and you'll come out the other side". But there's usually no informed consent going into a practice that this might happen. > There's even an attitude of "oh, that's a normal part of the process, just keep working through it and you'll come out the other side". . It's pretty much my experience. Yes, when you meditate, sometime some things will have to be broken or removed to let place to something new. Those temporary states are disagreable, and from the outside can be experienced as "panic attacks and depression to an unsettling sense of dissociation". Unfortunatly, if a building is in a bad shape, there is no way around destroying some part of it to rebuild. And this takes time. Meanwhile, there is a hole. It's not specific to meditation. You will see that in psychotherapy as well. That's why having meditation teachers is important, because they have to help you through this, make you understand what's happening, that like all the things, it's temporary, and to keep it up. And you are right when you say: > But there's usually no informed consent going into a practice that this might happen Because the experience vary a lot from person to person. There is no typical path. Some will not live that. Some will live a very mild or short sample of that. Meditation is not science. You can't predict how long things will go, or how long they will take. You even can't be exactly sure somebody is practicing correctly, nor that something else is not interracting with it in a bad way. That's why serious centers take so many precautions with beginers, but it's not perfect. It can't be. And it would be tempting (also quite logical) to think "what I'm doing doesn't work, I'm worse than I used to be". Unfortunatly yes, the old saying of "it will get harder before it gets easier" apply here in my experience. It will apply several times during a life of meditation, in cycles. Although it's way easier once you are experienced: you just use meditation as a way to go through it. It's what it's for after all. There is no alternative to trusting it will pass. Like with a chemothery, where some patients feel terrible for a long time before they feel better, while some patients never fully recover, and some even die. I went through all those stages in 16 years of meditation. Panic attacks. Depression. Dissociation. It sucks. The experience of a lot of meditants is that the practice does replace them with a better life eventually. The increase in happiness is, on average over a decade, very real and positive if you practice correctly, and keep at it. But it's hard. It's also not something you can plan for. Plus it can worry people around you, and even yourself. Which is a good thing: it means one cares about you. I would understand than somebody doesn't want to take the risk. I would state it's worth it, as I feel it is. But who knows, could be survivor bias.
raxxorraxor 4y ago
Mindfulness the same as wealth, beauty or general success can also be a tool to elevate yourself above others. Especially if your self-perception is that you are very mindful or very empathetic you might easily deduce that you do better than others and have to right their wrongs. There is no golden rule and there are obvious exceptions, but if your empathy comes with a lot of animosity, you probably just deceived yourself.
- lewispollard 4y ago
  Well, right mindfulness would allow you to see that self perception arise as distinct mental and physical sensations, and appropriately calm its fabrication. But, most people aren't practising correctly, I would think.

potatoman22 4y ago

Who's to say that meditation caused these adverse events? Perhaps some of those events would've happened regardless of if the person mediates.

nprateem 4y ago

I've been reading Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha and the author makes the same point about informed consent. It's widely known in various traditions meditation can mess you up. I think he quotes someone saying "better not to start if you're not going to finish" or you may end up in a bad place for a long time.

Trasmatta 4y ago
> It's widely known in various traditions meditation can mess you up Yeah, and the interesting thing is that in many Eastern traditions, meditation wasn't ever even recommended for the average person. And those that did do it, did so in an environment with teachers and safeguards. The McMindfulness fad is missing almost all of that, and I'm starting to see more and more stories of people hitting a dangerous wall without the cultural support they need to navigate to the other side. Sam Harris is one of the current major proponents of meditation in the West, and I've heard him say "even if meditation were bad for people, I would still recommend they do it". I think that's irresponsible advice.
- maroonblazer 4y ago
  > Sam Harris is one of the current major proponents of meditation in the West, and I've heard him say "even if meditation were bad for people, I would still recommend they do it". I think that's irresponsible advice. I've been using Harris' "Waking Up" app, to great success, for a few years now and your anecdote is uncharacteristic of his guidance. Where did he say this?
  - Trasmatta 4y ago
    I don't have a source, but I've heard him say it on his podcast before. I realize it's mostly hearsay since I can't provide a source.

jackpeterfletch 4y ago

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/cover-story/id1594675355 https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/cover-story/id15946753... The initial episode covers a story closer to a cult. But later this podcast reflects a lot of what you’ve mentioned anecdotally with respect to to modern psychedelic research.

BiteCode_dev 4y ago

> The 25% number is pretty striking, if true. You see people recommending meditation without reservation, and discounting adverse effects as "exceptionally rare". Over the years I've begun to see more and more stories of people having deeply destabilizing experiences with meditation, and it concerns me how quickly people dismiss that possibility. There's even an attitude of "oh, that's a normal part of the process, just keep working through it and you'll come out the other side". But there's usually no informed consent going into a practice that this might happen. > There's even an attitude of "oh, that's a normal part of the process, just keep working through it and you'll come out the other side". . It's pretty much my experience. Yes, when you meditate, sometime some things will have to be broken or removed to let place to something new. Those temporary states are disagreable, and from the outside can be experienced as "panic attacks and depression to an unsettling sense of dissociation". Unfortunatly, if a building is in a bad shape, there is no way around destroying some part of it to rebuild. And this takes time. Meanwhile, there is a hole. It's not specific to meditation. You will see that in psychotherapy as well. That's why having meditation teachers is important, because they have to help you through this, make you understand what's happening, that like all the things, it's temporary, and to keep it up. And you are right when you say: > But there's usually no informed consent going into a practice that this might happen Because the experience vary a lot from person to person. There is no typical path. Some will not live that. Some will live a very mild or short sample of that. Meditation is not science. You can't predict how long things will go, or how long they will take. You even can't be exactly sure somebody is practicing correctly, nor that something else is not interracting with it in a bad way. That's why serious centers take so many precautions with beginers, but it's not perfect. It can't be. And it would be tempting (also quite logical) to think "what I'm doing doesn't work, I'm worse than I used to be". Unfortunatly yes, the old saying of "it will get harder before it gets easier" apply here in my experience. It will apply several times during a life of meditation, in cycles. Although it's way easier once you are experienced: you just use meditation as a way to go through it. It's what it's for after all. There is no alternative to trusting it will pass. Like with a chemothery, where some patients feel terrible for a long time before they feel better, while some patients never fully recover, and some even die. I went through all those stages in 16 years of meditation. Panic attacks. Depression. Dissociation. It sucks. The experience of a lot of meditants is that the practice does replace them with a better life eventually. The increase in happiness is, on average over a decade, very real and positive if you practice correctly, and keep at it. But it's hard. It's also not something you can plan for. Plus it can worry people around you, and even yourself. Which is a good thing: it means one cares about you. I would understand than somebody doesn't want to take the risk. I would state it's worth it, as I feel it is. But who knows, could be survivor bias.

raxxorraxor 4y ago

Mindfulness the same as wealth, beauty or general success can also be a tool to elevate yourself above others. Especially if your self-perception is that you are very mindful or very empathetic you might easily deduce that you do better than others and have to right their wrongs. There is no golden rule and there are obvious exceptions, but if your empathy comes with a lot of animosity, you probably just deceived yourself.

lewispollard 4y ago
Well, right mindfulness would allow you to see that self perception arise as distinct mental and physical sensations, and appropriately calm its fabrication. But, most people aren't practising correctly, I would think.