5 ms·

Kiss Linux (2020)

104 points by peter_d_sherman 5y ago

peter_d_sherman 5y ago
Related: https://github.com/kisslinux https://github.com/kisslinux
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
marcodiego 5y ago
> Has a "Bus factor" of N/A (0?) thanks to the above points. Full power to the users and the community. On an archived page.
- schroeding 5y ago
  Would a bus factor of 0 not also be extremely bad, meaning that the project is in danger even if no one is actually killed by a bus and all developers are fine? :D
  - kdmccormick 5y ago
    Oh you're right XD I think "bus factor of infinity" is what they're going for!
    - Anunayj 5y ago
      well the project will stop dead right in tracks if a bus carrying the entire population of earth were to crash into a river, so I'd say the bus factor is very much finite.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
    Agreed; I've been on projects that I would count as having a bus factor of 0, because all the people who knew how to do any number of critical functions had been laid off. This is an attempt to make everything so simple and well-documented that that could never happen because anytime somebody wants to work on it they can pick it up and immediately be able to do everything.
  - OJFord 5y ago
    0 is often (ab?)used like this, e.g. 'never stop' where it ought (by some sort of logic) to mean 'stop immediately' or whatever other time or repetition based thing.
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  The current page seems to be up, though (https://kisslinux.org/ https://kisslinux.org/). I'm not sure why we're looking at the archive page.
- r3trohack3r 5y ago
  FWIW - the bus factor statement proved true. Dylan vanished without a trace a few years back. No message in IRC, the blog, source control, or anything. And the community just kept trucking. Have since confirmed he is alive and well.
acqbu 5y ago
:-*
flatiron 5y ago
So alpine with extra steps?
nsajko 5y ago
This seems to be where the project site has migrated to: https://kisslinux.org https://kisslinux.org
- stingraycharles 5y ago
  Thanks for that, I was under the impression that it was now dead due to the link to archive.org. Maybe the url of the original post should be updated.
Tao332 5y ago
r3trohack3r 5y ago
KISS is a fantastic piece of software. Arguably a better learning tool than LFS IMH(umble)O. It’s tiny footprint and git backed package manager really helps you get a sense of what a Linux distribution really is without much to distract you. From there, expanding out to larger and more complicated tool chains is a trade-off conversation. I learned a lot from KISS and I’m glad it exists.
aphadale 5y ago
The original creator/BDFL (Dylan Araps) has been a bit off and on with activity over the last year or so, so the official repository is a bit out of date. The community has kept up to date main and community repos at https://github.com/kiss-community/ https://github.com/kiss-community/ though. Come chat with us at #kisslinux on libera.chat! Also as pointed out in other comments, the main URL is https://kisslinux.org https://kisslinux.org now. Dylan never could seem to settle on a domain name for whatever reason, so there are many dead links, and I don't blame the OP for not finding the most recent one.
hsn915 5y ago
If "simple" makes you think of "less capabilities" then you are way off the mark. The challenge is to create something with more capability but architeturally more simple. I don't understand why they brag about supporting "only English". I'm also not sure what it means: does it mean the system does not even support utf-8 strings? Or is it just about the lack of UI translation to other languages? In either case, it's nothing to brag about. You're just removing capabilities for no reason. It's important to understand why simplicity is desireable: it's not desireable for itself, it's desireable because, everything else being equal, a simple system is easier to make reliable and robust. For example, a package manager written in 1000 lines of posix shell script is not a good thing. Shell script is a bad language. It's not simple. Errors are not reported until runtime. It's worse than dynamic languages because shell scripts often create permanent changes to the system. If a script fails mid execution, it might very well leave the system in a broken state. Now, obviously when dealing with systems that's always possible even if the program is written in a compiled language with static typing and very good compiler error messages. But there's no need to exacerbate the problem by writing a core utility in a shell script that's several hunderd lines of code.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- dundarious 5y ago
  It's perfectly reasonable to say "I'll take fewer capabilities in specific areas, if there is far less complexity". Those "missing" capabilities can be hard blockers for you, and that's fine as well. I also don't think much of your argument about shell is particularly strong, as it provides plenty of good facilities for dealing with errors (exiting subshell on first error, `trap`, etc.). The only reason I might expect an implementation in another language to be at least more correct in the ways you describe, is because the barrier to entry of those languages is higher, so the programmers may be more professional (in the good way, not in the meaningless way). Given there's just one developer here, we can skip rules of thumb like that and just assess that person and their modestly sized code.
  - hsn915 5y ago
slim 5y ago
my favorite KISS Linux is Tinycore http://www.tinycorelinux.net http://www.tinycorelinux.net It's even more opinionated and architecturally simpler than this. Every package is simply a tree fused into / with the union file system. It runs from ramdisk and can live in a fat formatted thumb drive.
anshargal 5y ago
Some of it sounds similar to now defunct Crux Linux https://crux.nu/ https://crux.nu/ but with rolling release
pkrumins 5y ago
Also incredibly cool project from the author is the Pure Bash Bible: https://github.com/dylanaraps/pure-bash-bible https://github.com/dylanaraps/pure-bash-bible.

Kiss Linux (2020)

peter_d_sherman 5y ago

Related: https://github.com/kisslinux https://github.com/kisslinux

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

marcodiego 5y ago

> Has a "Bus factor" of N/A (0?) thanks to the above points. Full power to the users and the community. On an archived page.

schroeding 5y ago
Would a bus factor of 0 not also be extremely bad, meaning that the project is in danger even if no one is actually killed by a bus and all developers are fine? :D
- kdmccormick 5y ago
  Oh you're right XD I think "bus factor of infinity" is what they're going for!
  - Anunayj 5y ago
    well the project will stop dead right in tracks if a bus carrying the entire population of earth were to crash into a river, so I'd say the bus factor is very much finite.
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  Agreed; I've been on projects that I would count as having a bus factor of 0, because all the people who knew how to do any number of critical functions had been laid off. This is an attempt to make everything so simple and well-documented that that could never happen because anytime somebody wants to work on it they can pick it up and immediately be able to do everything.
- OJFord 5y ago
  0 is often (ab?)used like this, e.g. 'never stop' where it ought (by some sort of logic) to mean 'stop immediately' or whatever other time or repetition based thing.
yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
The current page seems to be up, though (https://kisslinux.org/ https://kisslinux.org/). I'm not sure why we're looking at the archive page.
r3trohack3r 5y ago
FWIW - the bus factor statement proved true. Dylan vanished without a trace a few years back. No message in IRC, the blog, source control, or anything. And the community just kept trucking. Have since confirmed he is alive and well.

acqbu 5y ago

:-*

flatiron 5y ago

So alpine with extra steps?

nsajko 5y ago

This seems to be where the project site has migrated to: https://kisslinux.org https://kisslinux.org

stingraycharles 5y ago
Thanks for that, I was under the impression that it was now dead due to the link to archive.org. Maybe the url of the original post should be updated.

Tao332 5y ago

r3trohack3r 5y ago

KISS is a fantastic piece of software. Arguably a better learning tool than LFS IMH(umble)O. It’s tiny footprint and git backed package manager really helps you get a sense of what a Linux distribution really is without much to distract you. From there, expanding out to larger and more complicated tool chains is a trade-off conversation. I learned a lot from KISS and I’m glad it exists.

aphadale 5y ago

The original creator/BDFL (Dylan Araps) has been a bit off and on with activity over the last year or so, so the official repository is a bit out of date. The community has kept up to date main and community repos at https://github.com/kiss-community/ https://github.com/kiss-community/ though. Come chat with us at #kisslinux on libera.chat! Also as pointed out in other comments, the main URL is https://kisslinux.org https://kisslinux.org now. Dylan never could seem to settle on a domain name for whatever reason, so there are many dead links, and I don't blame the OP for not finding the most recent one.

hsn915 5y ago

If "simple" makes you think of "less capabilities" then you are way off the mark. The challenge is to create something with more capability but architeturally more simple. I don't understand why they brag about supporting "only English". I'm also not sure what it means: does it mean the system does not even support utf-8 strings? Or is it just about the lack of UI translation to other languages? In either case, it's nothing to brag about. You're just removing capabilities for no reason. It's important to understand why simplicity is desireable: it's not desireable for itself, it's desireable because, everything else being equal, a simple system is easier to make reliable and robust. For example, a package manager written in 1000 lines of posix shell script is not a good thing. Shell script is a bad language. It's not simple. Errors are not reported until runtime. It's worse than dynamic languages because shell scripts often create permanent changes to the system. If a script fails mid execution, it might very well leave the system in a broken state. Now, obviously when dealing with systems that's always possible even if the program is written in a compiled language with static typing and very good compiler error messages. But there's no need to exacerbate the problem by writing a core utility in a shell script that's several hunderd lines of code.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
dundarious 5y ago
It's perfectly reasonable to say "I'll take fewer capabilities in specific areas, if there is far less complexity". Those "missing" capabilities can be hard blockers for you, and that's fine as well. I also don't think much of your argument about shell is particularly strong, as it provides plenty of good facilities for dealing with errors (exiting subshell on first error, `trap`, etc.). The only reason I might expect an implementation in another language to be at least more correct in the ways you describe, is because the barrier to entry of those languages is higher, so the programmers may be more professional (in the good way, not in the meaningless way). Given there's just one developer here, we can skip rules of thumb like that and just assess that person and their modestly sized code.
- hsn915 5y ago

slim 5y ago

my favorite KISS Linux is Tinycore http://www.tinycorelinux.net http://www.tinycorelinux.net It's even more opinionated and architecturally simpler than this. Every package is simply a tree fused into / with the union file system. It runs from ramdisk and can live in a fat formatted thumb drive.

anshargal 5y ago

Some of it sounds similar to now defunct Crux Linux https://crux.nu/ https://crux.nu/ but with rolling release

pkrumins 5y ago

Also incredibly cool project from the author is the Pure Bash Bible: https://github.com/dylanaraps/pure-bash-bible https://github.com/dylanaraps/pure-bash-bible.