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You're spot on in mathematics and CS on this. But the important take-away to me is that there is no way to express disapproval in the current western democratic

You're spot on in mathematics and CS on this. But the important take-away to me is that there is no way to express disapproval in the current western democratic voting system. Even non-voting is not disapproval. I'd welcome very much if we could agree that we have a problem there, and shift focus from criticizing new ideas to improving them. To me, we definitely need democracy 2.0. If possible without resorting to meritocracy, but some sound foundation where it's possible to voice disapproval.

codefreeordie 4y ago
And yet, when I talk to people about why they vote the way they do, or when I listen to campaign advertisements, I get the sense that actually the majority of votes cast are "protest votes" whereby one is voting for candidate X because they wish to express their hatred/disapproval/disdain of candidate Y.
dane-pgp 4y ago
> I'd welcome very much if we could agree that we have a problem there, and shift focus from criticizing new ideas to improving them. I'm happy to think more about this problem and see if we can find some common ground (which is why I mentioned other voting reforms as ways of capturing more information about the preferences of the public), but I think I'm still a little unsure about why "expressing disapproval using voting systems" should be a goal. Expressing disapproval in parties is, I think, an important part of a healthy democracy, but that can be done using free speech, protests, and opinion polls. Is that not enough? Maybe it's best for societies to follow your advice and, instead of criticizing existing parties, work to improve them (from within) or positively support alternative parties offering a different vision. I think there's a real danger when trying to add "express disapproval" as an output of a voting system, since (as the article itself noted) it's already very difficult to create a voting system which fulfils other reasonable requirements. If voters have a choice between expressing disapproval of a party, and increasing the chances of their preferred party winning, they will opt for the latter. The existence of tactical voting suggests that it is very hard to make a voting system reward honesty, so we shouldn't try to overload it and make it do too many things.

codefreeordie 4y ago

And yet, when I talk to people about why they vote the way they do, or when I listen to campaign advertisements, I get the sense that actually the majority of votes cast are "protest votes" whereby one is voting for candidate X because they wish to express their hatred/disapproval/disdain of candidate Y.

dane-pgp 4y ago

> I'd welcome very much if we could agree that we have a problem there, and shift focus from criticizing new ideas to improving them. I'm happy to think more about this problem and see if we can find some common ground (which is why I mentioned other voting reforms as ways of capturing more information about the preferences of the public), but I think I'm still a little unsure about why "expressing disapproval using voting systems" should be a goal. Expressing disapproval in parties is, I think, an important part of a healthy democracy, but that can be done using free speech, protests, and opinion polls. Is that not enough? Maybe it's best for societies to follow your advice and, instead of criticizing existing parties, work to improve them (from within) or positively support alternative parties offering a different vision. I think there's a real danger when trying to add "express disapproval" as an output of a voting system, since (as the article itself noted) it's already very difficult to create a voting system which fulfils other reasonable requirements. If voters have a choice between expressing disapproval of a party, and increasing the chances of their preferred party winning, they will opt for the latter. The existence of tactical voting suggests that it is very hard to make a voting system reward honesty, so we shouldn't try to overload it and make it do too many things.