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> it's because of some characteristic within those people But why can't this be true? Numerous studies have shown that genetic and particularly cultural traits

> it's because of some characteristic within those people But why can't this be true? Numerous studies have shown that genetic and particularly cultural traits produce vast differences in cognitive ability. Most recently for instance in a story about Korean twins separated at birth[1]. Research also shows that these differences can account for an overwhelming majority of the disparity in outcomes. This has been an active area of research for decades, and academia isn't at all in agreement that "marginalization" is the culprit here[2]. > marginalized groups have drastically worse outcomes Not all "marginalized groups" do though, do they? Unless you only include groups with poor outcomes in your definition of "marginalized", in which case it's a bit circular isn't it? 1. https://www.psypost.org/2022/05/psychologists-found-a-striking-difference-in-intelligence-after-examining-twins-raised-apart-in-south-korea-and-the-united-states-63091 https://www.psypost.org/2022/05/psychologists-found-a-striki... 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5csE8q9mho https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5csE8q9mho

cmdli 4y ago
> But why can't this be true? Numerous studies have shown that genetic and particularly cultural traits produce vast differences in cognitive ability. Most recently for instance in a story about Korean twins separated at birth[1]. Let's be honest, the reason so many people are opposed to this view is because it has been wrongfully used in the past to justify very real oppression and inequality of opportunity. At the very least, it is a very dangerous mindset historically, and even now it's not very well understood. For example, in the study you mentioned around Korean twins, one was raised in a fairly standard Korean household while the other was tossed around the foster care system and had multitudes of setbacks given to them. And yet people will still use it as evidence that these differences are inherent and unchangeable. Do you not see how this reasoning can lead us to ignore our own blindspots and biases?
- thegrimmest 4y ago
  > wrongfully used in the past to justify very real oppression and inequality of opportunity That doesn't mean that the view is factually inaccurate though does it? I think the best way to avoid oppression is to define and prohibit the practice of it, rather than measure the outcomes. This is what civil rights seems to be all about. > differences are inherent and unchangeable I never said that, I said that different childhood circumstances, cultural practices, and domestic environments clearly produce vastly different outcomes. I also think that using authority to standardize how children are raised would be tyrannical. Most fundamentally, if you want to raise your children without, for instance, an emphasis on educational attainment, you should have the right to do so. Also, no one should be surprised that children raised in such circumstances don't go on to have equality of economic outcome. And no one should get bent out of shape about these facts in combination, as they are not a product of "marginalization".
  - jpetso 4y ago
    > Most fundamentally, if you want to raise your children without, for instance, an emphasis on educational attainment, you should have the right to do so. Perhaps that's true if you believe that parents should be the only ones responsible for their children's fate, but that puts a lot of power in parents' hands and doesn't leave much with the kids themselves. I think there's a middle ground between complete standardization and complete reliance on one or two individuals that prevents the worst outcomes, although it may also prevent some of the best possible outcomes. But generally getting input from a number of different sources is a good thing, and even if "authority" may not be great at comprehensive development of varied individuals, it can still set minimum standards and make sure the child isn't entirely subject to their parents' whims.
    - thegrimmest 4y ago
      Using authority to take power over their own children away from parents isn't something I'm sure I'm onboard with. I think it suggests a long conversation about the philosophy of cooperation and coexistence that may exceed the depth limit of this forum :) Edit: More generally, parents are responsible to a large degree for their children's fate, as the importance of domestic environment in the research repeatedly shows. The question is what (if anything) we should do about this, exactly? Edit 2: Come to think of it, using authority over parents in this way could constitute cultural genocide, for instance as it was perpetrated by the Canadian residential school system. Funny how casually it can be suggested.
      - okaram 4y ago
        > Using authority to take power over their own children away from parents isn't something I'm sure I'm onboard with. Just in case you have not noticed, we do that nowadays, to combat child abuse. Giving parents 100% unrestricted power over their children would enable horrific child abuse, selling your children for slavery etc ... Funny how casually it can be suggested. The answer lies in the middle, as the parent post suggested :)
        4y ago
- CryptoPunk 4y ago
  >>Let's be honest, the reason so many people are opposed to this view is because it has been wrongfully used in the past to justify very real oppression and inequality of opportunity. At the very least, it is a very dangerous mindset historically, and even now it's not very well understood. And the denial of that view has historically been used to impose the most tyrannical societies that have ever existed, in the form of totalitarian communist states.
tshaddox 4y ago
If you live in a society controlled by people who have concluded that it’s okay if your outcomes are terrible because you culture, genes, cognitive abilities, etc. are inferior, then I don’t really see any sense in which it makes sense to say that you received “equality of opportunity.” And my claim is completely independent of how confident the powerful people are that their beliefs about your inferiority are big-T True.
- thegrimmest 4y ago
  You're assuming that economic outcome is the one metric by which all people should be equalized. This seems a bit presumptive doesn't it? > culture, genes, cognitive abilities, etc. are inferior No one said they are inferior, only that they seem produce different results. It's you who is characterizing these as inferior. Equality of opportunity is apparent through the fact there is no policy (that I'm aware of), explicitly targeting people by, say, race (whatever that means), and that such policies are illegal. This fact alone however provides no guarantee of economic equality, nor was it ever intended to, nor has economic equality ever been a goal of legal equality. The reasons for economic inequality are myriad and complex, and people have devoted their entire careers to their study. Did you watch the video I linked? What do you think of Dr. Sowell's perspective?
  - tshaddox 4y ago
    > You're assuming that economic outcome is the one metric by which all people should be equalized. This seems a bit presumptive doesn't it? I didn’t mention anything specifically about economic outcomes, although obviously money can have a big effect on important outcomes like nutrition and medical care. > No one said they are inferior, only that they seem produce different results. It's you who is characterizing these as inferior. Someone did say this. The comment I’m responding to used the terms “drastically worse outcomes” and “lesser people.” Also, I’m not here to quibble about questions like “is it really worse to be starving than to be well-fed?”
- Crabber 4y ago
  It is far more empathetic and fair to acknowledge people's genetic disadvantages and adjust expectations accordingly, than to demand everyone competes at the same level. Which is why women have their own sports leagues instead of being forced to compete with men. It is you that is injecting the idea of "inferiority". Women and children cannot compete athletically with men, and that's okay. I don't think that you would try to suggest that women's and under 18's football leagues were the result of "society being controlled by people who have concluded that these groups are genetically inferior".
inglor_cz 4y ago
Is this the study with N == 2 (one pair of twins) and with the lower-IQ twin who suffered three concussions, unlike the other twin? How can something like that be even called a "study".

cmdli 4y ago

> But why can't this be true? Numerous studies have shown that genetic and particularly cultural traits produce vast differences in cognitive ability. Most recently for instance in a story about Korean twins separated at birth[1]. Let's be honest, the reason so many people are opposed to this view is because it has been wrongfully used in the past to justify very real oppression and inequality of opportunity. At the very least, it is a very dangerous mindset historically, and even now it's not very well understood. For example, in the study you mentioned around Korean twins, one was raised in a fairly standard Korean household while the other was tossed around the foster care system and had multitudes of setbacks given to them. And yet people will still use it as evidence that these differences are inherent and unchangeable. Do you not see how this reasoning can lead us to ignore our own blindspots and biases?

thegrimmest 4y ago
> wrongfully used in the past to justify very real oppression and inequality of opportunity That doesn't mean that the view is factually inaccurate though does it? I think the best way to avoid oppression is to define and prohibit the practice of it, rather than measure the outcomes. This is what civil rights seems to be all about. > differences are inherent and unchangeable I never said that, I said that different childhood circumstances, cultural practices, and domestic environments clearly produce vastly different outcomes. I also think that using authority to standardize how children are raised would be tyrannical. Most fundamentally, if you want to raise your children without, for instance, an emphasis on educational attainment, you should have the right to do so. Also, no one should be surprised that children raised in such circumstances don't go on to have equality of economic outcome. And no one should get bent out of shape about these facts in combination, as they are not a product of "marginalization".
- jpetso 4y ago
  > Most fundamentally, if you want to raise your children without, for instance, an emphasis on educational attainment, you should have the right to do so. Perhaps that's true if you believe that parents should be the only ones responsible for their children's fate, but that puts a lot of power in parents' hands and doesn't leave much with the kids themselves. I think there's a middle ground between complete standardization and complete reliance on one or two individuals that prevents the worst outcomes, although it may also prevent some of the best possible outcomes. But generally getting input from a number of different sources is a good thing, and even if "authority" may not be great at comprehensive development of varied individuals, it can still set minimum standards and make sure the child isn't entirely subject to their parents' whims.
  - thegrimmest 4y ago
    Using authority to take power over their own children away from parents isn't something I'm sure I'm onboard with. I think it suggests a long conversation about the philosophy of cooperation and coexistence that may exceed the depth limit of this forum :) Edit: More generally, parents are responsible to a large degree for their children's fate, as the importance of domestic environment in the research repeatedly shows. The question is what (if anything) we should do about this, exactly? Edit 2: Come to think of it, using authority over parents in this way could constitute cultural genocide, for instance as it was perpetrated by the Canadian residential school system. Funny how casually it can be suggested.
    - okaram 4y ago
      > Using authority to take power over their own children away from parents isn't something I'm sure I'm onboard with. Just in case you have not noticed, we do that nowadays, to combat child abuse. Giving parents 100% unrestricted power over their children would enable horrific child abuse, selling your children for slavery etc ... Funny how casually it can be suggested. The answer lies in the middle, as the parent post suggested :)
      - 4y ago
CryptoPunk 4y ago
>>Let's be honest, the reason so many people are opposed to this view is because it has been wrongfully used in the past to justify very real oppression and inequality of opportunity. At the very least, it is a very dangerous mindset historically, and even now it's not very well understood. And the denial of that view has historically been used to impose the most tyrannical societies that have ever existed, in the form of totalitarian communist states.

tshaddox 4y ago

If you live in a society controlled by people who have concluded that it’s okay if your outcomes are terrible because you culture, genes, cognitive abilities, etc. are inferior, then I don’t really see any sense in which it makes sense to say that you received “equality of opportunity.” And my claim is completely independent of how confident the powerful people are that their beliefs about your inferiority are big-T True.

thegrimmest 4y ago
You're assuming that economic outcome is the one metric by which all people should be equalized. This seems a bit presumptive doesn't it? > culture, genes, cognitive abilities, etc. are inferior No one said they are inferior, only that they seem produce different results. It's you who is characterizing these as inferior. Equality of opportunity is apparent through the fact there is no policy (that I'm aware of), explicitly targeting people by, say, race (whatever that means), and that such policies are illegal. This fact alone however provides no guarantee of economic equality, nor was it ever intended to, nor has economic equality ever been a goal of legal equality. The reasons for economic inequality are myriad and complex, and people have devoted their entire careers to their study. Did you watch the video I linked? What do you think of Dr. Sowell's perspective?
- tshaddox 4y ago
  > You're assuming that economic outcome is the one metric by which all people should be equalized. This seems a bit presumptive doesn't it? I didn’t mention anything specifically about economic outcomes, although obviously money can have a big effect on important outcomes like nutrition and medical care. > No one said they are inferior, only that they seem produce different results. It's you who is characterizing these as inferior. Someone did say this. The comment I’m responding to used the terms “drastically worse outcomes” and “lesser people.” Also, I’m not here to quibble about questions like “is it really worse to be starving than to be well-fed?”
Crabber 4y ago
It is far more empathetic and fair to acknowledge people's genetic disadvantages and adjust expectations accordingly, than to demand everyone competes at the same level. Which is why women have their own sports leagues instead of being forced to compete with men. It is you that is injecting the idea of "inferiority". Women and children cannot compete athletically with men, and that's okay. I don't think that you would try to suggest that women's and under 18's football leagues were the result of "society being controlled by people who have concluded that these groups are genetically inferior".

inglor_cz 4y ago

Is this the study with N == 2 (one pair of twins) and with the lower-IQ twin who suffered three concussions, unlike the other twin? How can something like that be even called a "study".