4 ms·

> I'm having a hard time imagining a society with unequal outcomes but equal opportunity That is only confusing if you also assume that all people have equal s

> I'm having a hard time imagining a society with unequal outcomes but equal opportunity That is only confusing if you also assume that all people have equal skills, desires, preferences, physical characteristics and so on. They don't and so there is no reason to think that equal opportunities presented to a collection of unique individuals will result in equal outcomes. Instead there will be a unique outcomes based on what the individuals bring to the opportunities.

Buttons840 4y ago
I'm saying, as another commenter put it, "equality is unstable". Equal opportunity leads to unequal outcomes, unequal outcomes leads to unequal opportunity.
- gwright 4y ago
  I'm having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say here. I would assert though that in a world of unique individuals there won't ever be "equal outcomes" regardless of the distribution and nature of opportunities, which is not a statement about how to improve or maximize opportunities. I would also assert that there is no agreement that "equal outcomes" is a desirable goal nor is it even a well-defined goal.
  - Buttons840 4y ago
    I agree. I never argue that equal outcomes is possible (the words "equal outcome" never appear in my comment). I argue that even if we have equal opportunities, then we will still get unequal outcomes. I believe we are in agreement on every point.
femiagbabiaka 4y ago
Statistics exists? Claiming that literally anyone wants every outcome to be equal seems like a strawman. But we should strive for fairly statistically equivalent outcomes, and we aren’t close, even along gender lines.
- klipt 4y ago
  For example, men live on average 5 years less than women. How should we fix this? Massive government expenditure into men's health research and men's occupational safety?
  - femiagbabiaka 4y ago
    Would that be a bad thing? There are a lot of other negative mortality outcomes linked to demographics so maybe we take a look at those as well. The link between abortion bans and mortality rates for women seems pretty germane in the US at the moment…
    - klipt 4y ago
      Maybe, but if the goal is shrinking the gender lifespan gap, reducing women's mortality would actually make the gap worse. You should focus on reducing men's mortality first, until the gap disappears or reverses, at which point you can start considering women's mortality again.
- gwright 4y ago
  > But we should strive for fairly statistically equivalent outcomes, and we aren’t close, even along gender lines. Why do you think this? Why do you think that genders have equal preferences, for example? What about different age groups? The age distribution of various groups is quite different and so that alone will result in different outcomes without any unfair limitations being involved. What do you propose to do about gender differences in mining, logging, car mechanics, etc.? Are you going to force women to enter those occupations? Why do you think the gender imbalance is evidence of unfairness that needs to be remedied? How much power would you have to give to government in order to achieve "fairly statistically equivalent outcomes" in these cases? This focus on group "equality" can seemingly only come at the expense of limiting individuals. IMHO we should focus on maximizing individual liberty and not focus on statistical outcomes for groups.
  - femiagbabiaka 4y ago

Buttons840 4y ago

I'm saying, as another commenter put it, "equality is unstable". Equal opportunity leads to unequal outcomes, unequal outcomes leads to unequal opportunity.

gwright 4y ago
I'm having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say here. I would assert though that in a world of unique individuals there won't ever be "equal outcomes" regardless of the distribution and nature of opportunities, which is not a statement about how to improve or maximize opportunities. I would also assert that there is no agreement that "equal outcomes" is a desirable goal nor is it even a well-defined goal.
- Buttons840 4y ago
  I agree. I never argue that equal outcomes is possible (the words "equal outcome" never appear in my comment). I argue that even if we have equal opportunities, then we will still get unequal outcomes. I believe we are in agreement on every point.

femiagbabiaka 4y ago

Statistics exists? Claiming that literally anyone wants every outcome to be equal seems like a strawman. But we should strive for fairly statistically equivalent outcomes, and we aren’t close, even along gender lines.

klipt 4y ago
For example, men live on average 5 years less than women. How should we fix this? Massive government expenditure into men's health research and men's occupational safety?
- femiagbabiaka 4y ago
  Would that be a bad thing? There are a lot of other negative mortality outcomes linked to demographics so maybe we take a look at those as well. The link between abortion bans and mortality rates for women seems pretty germane in the US at the moment…
  - klipt 4y ago
    Maybe, but if the goal is shrinking the gender lifespan gap, reducing women's mortality would actually make the gap worse. You should focus on reducing men's mortality first, until the gap disappears or reverses, at which point you can start considering women's mortality again.
gwright 4y ago
> But we should strive for fairly statistically equivalent outcomes, and we aren’t close, even along gender lines. Why do you think this? Why do you think that genders have equal preferences, for example? What about different age groups? The age distribution of various groups is quite different and so that alone will result in different outcomes without any unfair limitations being involved. What do you propose to do about gender differences in mining, logging, car mechanics, etc.? Are you going to force women to enter those occupations? Why do you think the gender imbalance is evidence of unfairness that needs to be remedied? How much power would you have to give to government in order to achieve "fairly statistically equivalent outcomes" in these cases? This focus on group "equality" can seemingly only come at the expense of limiting individuals. IMHO we should focus on maximizing individual liberty and not focus on statistical outcomes for groups.
- femiagbabiaka 4y ago