5 ms·

> In todays world it seems equal opportunity, equity.. and equalized outcomes often conflated with one another. Spot on. Even the most hardcore progressive fan

> In todays world it seems equal opportunity, equity.. and equalized outcomes often conflated with one another. Spot on. Even the most hardcore progressive fanatics I’ve spoken to aren’t pushing for a totally equal experience across humanity. It’s about giving everyone a fair shot at a quality life. Some may have terrible ideas for how to achieve that, but they’re not trying to cut all flowers to the same height.

anthony_d 4y ago
I have spoken with a few hardcore “progressive” fanatics arguing for absolute equality of outcome. It’s a good reminder that intelligence is used to achieve goals, it’s not used for setting goals. When someone’s values are so different it’s hard to have any sort of meaningful conversation.
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
  > intelligence is used to achieve goals I thought grit was more important than intelligence?
  - stretchwithme 4y ago
    Is that saying that grit is less important?
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Intelligence is a tool. If it isn't actually used (i.e. applying grit), it is useless.
- haswell 4y ago
  > When someone’s values are so different it’s hard to have any sort of meaningful conversation. This is something I spend a lot of time thinking/worrying about. I deeply believe that to make meaningful progress, we all need to start listening to each other. Not just what others are saying outwardly, but looking for the underlying reasons they’re saying it - their values. When someone’s position on policy is drastically different than my own, a conversation about values often reveals that we’re not so far off in terms of what we believe. They just got stuck on their particular implementation detail. But when values are worlds apart, what then? On the plus side, I’ve encountered far more people who fall into the former category - disagreement on policy - then I’ve encountered in the latter - a true chasm between our value systems. The frustrating part is that the same group of people in the policy disagreement category are quick to lump me in with the value extremists without stopping to make sure that’s what I really believe. And such is the state of modern political discourse, where championing equality is derided as a fanciful dream about equity, when nothing could be further from the truth.
- stretchwithme 4y ago
  Dis NASA use intelligence when deciding on its goals in the 1960s? Are there reasons it decided to land on the Moon instead of on the Sun? Why didn't the US make that a goal in 1793?
  - Slamidan 4y ago
    Intelligence without faith and spirit just turns in on itself. The 60s benefited from peak functional values before the decline, they braved danger when we lock down today. They were also likely the last generation before the rot of mass dysgenics set in. Why Was the 1960s the Peak of Human Accomplishment (and Pro-Sociality)? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kokKSIq5Z0g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kokKSIq5Z0g
    - stretchwithme 4y ago
      There's no proof that the 1960s was the peak.
- davorak 4y ago
  > When someone’s values are so different it’s hard to have any sort of meaningful conversation. I recommend having 'deep' conversations. Dig down into definitions, in to differences perceived, find where your perceptions differ. Then you can propose experiments that would change one perception or another. Most people do not have the time for that for one reason or another(including myself sometimes), but it has worked for me and might for you.
assttoasstmgr 4y ago
> but they’re not trying to cut all flowers to the same height This is usually the point in the conversation where they share the cartoon of a group of people staring over a fence watching a baseball game, with each person standing on a different sized stepladder such that their overall height is equal. So yes, I would argue that is exactly what they are trying to do.
- klipt 4y ago
  Yet if you point out that women live longer than men on average, and equality of outcome there would require huge government funding into men's health, or allowing men to collect social security earlier so they have equal retirement years, the same "progressives" will usually oppose those measures!
  - mcv 4y ago
    I don't see progressives oppose funding healthcare of any kind, and I'm certainly in favour of people doing hard physical work being able to retire earlier (or better: making their work less hard). If you really want to tackle this issue, you need to look at why men live shorter than women. Do they die violent deaths more often? Trying to make society less violent could benefit everybody. Do they harm their health by working more often in unhealthy situations? Maybe improve those work situations. Are they more likely to commit suicide? Maybe invest in better mental healthcare. Does testosterone make them more likely to engage in risky behaviour that gets them killed? Well, at some point you've got to decide whether the higher risk and resulting shorter life expectancy is a matter of personal choice or not. I suppose education can play a role here. Data suggests that more gender equality in society also leads to more gender equality in life expectancy[0]. But we should also remember that the goal of equality has to be to lift people up. Of course we could close the gender life expectancy gap by reducing life expectancy for women (maybe reducing maternity health care?) but I hope everybody agrees that would be a terrible idea. We should tackle the issues that cause men to die earlier. [0] https://gh.bmj.com/content/7/2/e008278 https://gh.bmj.com/content/7/2/e008278
    - Slamidan 4y ago

anthony_d 4y ago

I have spoken with a few hardcore “progressive” fanatics arguing for absolute equality of outcome. It’s a good reminder that intelligence is used to achieve goals, it’s not used for setting goals. When someone’s values are so different it’s hard to have any sort of meaningful conversation.

TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
> intelligence is used to achieve goals I thought grit was more important than intelligence?
- stretchwithme 4y ago
  Is that saying that grit is less important?
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Intelligence is a tool. If it isn't actually used (i.e. applying grit), it is useless.
haswell 4y ago
> When someone’s values are so different it’s hard to have any sort of meaningful conversation. This is something I spend a lot of time thinking/worrying about. I deeply believe that to make meaningful progress, we all need to start listening to each other. Not just what others are saying outwardly, but looking for the underlying reasons they’re saying it - their values. When someone’s position on policy is drastically different than my own, a conversation about values often reveals that we’re not so far off in terms of what we believe. They just got stuck on their particular implementation detail. But when values are worlds apart, what then? On the plus side, I’ve encountered far more people who fall into the former category - disagreement on policy - then I’ve encountered in the latter - a true chasm between our value systems. The frustrating part is that the same group of people in the policy disagreement category are quick to lump me in with the value extremists without stopping to make sure that’s what I really believe. And such is the state of modern political discourse, where championing equality is derided as a fanciful dream about equity, when nothing could be further from the truth.
stretchwithme 4y ago
Dis NASA use intelligence when deciding on its goals in the 1960s? Are there reasons it decided to land on the Moon instead of on the Sun? Why didn't the US make that a goal in 1793?
- Slamidan 4y ago
  Intelligence without faith and spirit just turns in on itself. The 60s benefited from peak functional values before the decline, they braved danger when we lock down today. They were also likely the last generation before the rot of mass dysgenics set in. Why Was the 1960s the Peak of Human Accomplishment (and Pro-Sociality)? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kokKSIq5Z0g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kokKSIq5Z0g
  - stretchwithme 4y ago
    There's no proof that the 1960s was the peak.
davorak 4y ago
> When someone’s values are so different it’s hard to have any sort of meaningful conversation. I recommend having 'deep' conversations. Dig down into definitions, in to differences perceived, find where your perceptions differ. Then you can propose experiments that would change one perception or another. Most people do not have the time for that for one reason or another(including myself sometimes), but it has worked for me and might for you.

assttoasstmgr 4y ago

> but they’re not trying to cut all flowers to the same height This is usually the point in the conversation where they share the cartoon of a group of people staring over a fence watching a baseball game, with each person standing on a different sized stepladder such that their overall height is equal. So yes, I would argue that is exactly what they are trying to do.

klipt 4y ago
Yet if you point out that women live longer than men on average, and equality of outcome there would require huge government funding into men's health, or allowing men to collect social security earlier so they have equal retirement years, the same "progressives" will usually oppose those measures!
- mcv 4y ago
  I don't see progressives oppose funding healthcare of any kind, and I'm certainly in favour of people doing hard physical work being able to retire earlier (or better: making their work less hard). If you really want to tackle this issue, you need to look at why men live shorter than women. Do they die violent deaths more often? Trying to make society less violent could benefit everybody. Do they harm their health by working more often in unhealthy situations? Maybe improve those work situations. Are they more likely to commit suicide? Maybe invest in better mental healthcare. Does testosterone make them more likely to engage in risky behaviour that gets them killed? Well, at some point you've got to decide whether the higher risk and resulting shorter life expectancy is a matter of personal choice or not. I suppose education can play a role here. Data suggests that more gender equality in society also leads to more gender equality in life expectancy[0]. But we should also remember that the goal of equality has to be to lift people up. Of course we could close the gender life expectancy gap by reducing life expectancy for women (maybe reducing maternity health care?) but I hope everybody agrees that would be a terrible idea. We should tackle the issues that cause men to die earlier. [0] https://gh.bmj.com/content/7/2/e008278 https://gh.bmj.com/content/7/2/e008278
  - Slamidan 4y ago