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If people are working at FoxConn voluntarily (i.e, they choose to go to work there because they believe their lives are better that way), who cares? If people

by javert 15y ago

If people are working at FoxConn voluntarily (i.e, they choose to go to work there because they believe their lives are better that way), who cares? If people are being forced to work there by the government, then U.S. and European governments need to decide if they're willing to allow trade with a government that uses slave labor. (I highly doubt people are being forced to work there, though.)

spacemanaki 15y ago
> If people are working at FoxConn voluntarily (i.e, they choose to go to work there because they believe their lives are better that way), who cares? Well I care, for one. I think there are probably others who do too. Why can't it be both? Why can't workers at Foxconn choose work there because it's better than the alternative, AND be treated decently and work in decent conditions? I think it's good that some people are concerned about the supply chain for our electronic toys. I've decided that I can live with a slightly older Android rather than upgrade to some new Android phone or the new iPhone... and that's partly motivated by these extra costs attached to the toys.
- Domenic_S 15y ago
  > Why can't workers at Foxconn choose work there because it's better than the alternative, AND be treated decently and work in decent conditions? Because then the cost of our electronic devices would skyrocket. iPhone 5: $2,500 (with two-year agreement). > I've decided that I can live with a slightly older Android rather than upgrade... That's nice, but it doesn't change who made your old Android.
  - spacemanaki 15y ago
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The cost would increase, but would it actually be that much? I don't know and I'm not qualified to guess. Should we not be concerned with working conditions just because it would increase the cost of the end products? I'm not trying to make a big statement here about my choice to keep using an older phone. I am of course aware that this choice has no impact on who built it. I don't see what's wrong with reducing consumption a little bit and giving a little thought to these issues. That's all I meant to say with my original comment.
raganwald 15y ago
If people are working at FoxConn voluntarily (i.e, they choose to go to work there because they believe their lives are better that way), who cares? Now you are moving the goalposts from discussing Foxconn to the question of whether we should regulate free will. I’m not asking you to agree with my stance on any of the following questions, but I do ask you to recognize that they are equivalent to your question, and to recognize that many other people hold differing views from your own: * If people want jobs working at a construction site that doesn't follow safe practices like wearing a hard hat, who cares? * If people want to work for $1 a day, who cares? * If people want to work for an employer who insists on sexual favours as a condition of their employment, who cares? I think you can recognize that while there are folks who don’t care about any of these questions anywhere in the world, including North America, in the US and in Canada there are a sufficient number of people who do care that we can readily say that our moral standard is such that we claim to care as a society. As for being forced to work somewhere, I’d say you’re rarely forced to do anything, you just find yourself in an environment where the alternatives are so drastically unappealing that you effectively have no free will in the matter. This is why we choose to impose safety standards in the workplace: We have discovered that the free market will act in such a way that safe workplaces are extremely rare, and in turn people seeking jobs will discover that they have few if any options available to themselves.
- javert 15y ago
  I think that the questions you raise are extremely pertinent, so I agree with you there. We have discovered that the free market will act in such a way that safe workplaces are extremely rare I just don't buy that. I think "extremely rare," there, is a very gross exaggeration. And I think the frequency of dangerous workplaces greatly decreases, as national prosperity increases (which, modulo other kinds of interference, happens over time). I mean, come on - even Foxconn is relatively safe. I'm not hearing accounts of people getting killed, I'm hearing (at worst) accounts of people being fired after acquiring certain kinds of repetitive stress injuries. On the other hand, I do have a moral problem with someone forcefully interposing between two trading parties (in this case, employer and employee). In fact, that kind of case is the only kind in which people are forcibly prevented from exercising their free will.

by javert 15y ago

spacemanaki 15y ago

> If people are working at FoxConn voluntarily (i.e, they choose to go to work there because they believe their lives are better that way), who cares? Well I care, for one. I think there are probably others who do too. Why can't it be both? Why can't workers at Foxconn choose work there because it's better than the alternative, AND be treated decently and work in decent conditions? I think it's good that some people are concerned about the supply chain for our electronic toys. I've decided that I can live with a slightly older Android rather than upgrade to some new Android phone or the new iPhone... and that's partly motivated by these extra costs attached to the toys.

Domenic_S 15y ago
> Why can't workers at Foxconn choose work there because it's better than the alternative, AND be treated decently and work in decent conditions? Because then the cost of our electronic devices would skyrocket. iPhone 5: $2,500 (with two-year agreement). > I've decided that I can live with a slightly older Android rather than upgrade... That's nice, but it doesn't change who made your old Android.
- spacemanaki 15y ago
  I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The cost would increase, but would it actually be that much? I don't know and I'm not qualified to guess. Should we not be concerned with working conditions just because it would increase the cost of the end products? I'm not trying to make a big statement here about my choice to keep using an older phone. I am of course aware that this choice has no impact on who built it. I don't see what's wrong with reducing consumption a little bit and giving a little thought to these issues. That's all I meant to say with my original comment.

raganwald 15y ago

If people are working at FoxConn voluntarily (i.e, they choose to go to work there because they believe their lives are better that way), who cares? Now you are moving the goalposts from discussing Foxconn to the question of whether we should regulate free will. I’m not asking you to agree with my stance on any of the following questions, but I do ask you to recognize that they are equivalent to your question, and to recognize that many other people hold differing views from your own: * If people want jobs working at a construction site that doesn't follow safe practices like wearing a hard hat, who cares? * If people want to work for $1 a day, who cares? * If people want to work for an employer who insists on sexual favours as a condition of their employment, who cares? I think you can recognize that while there are folks who don’t care about any of these questions anywhere in the world, including North America, in the US and in Canada there are a sufficient number of people who do care that we can readily say that our moral standard is such that we claim to care as a society. As for being forced to work somewhere, I’d say you’re rarely forced to do anything, you just find yourself in an environment where the alternatives are so drastically unappealing that you effectively have no free will in the matter. This is why we choose to impose safety standards in the workplace: We have discovered that the free market will act in such a way that safe workplaces are extremely rare, and in turn people seeking jobs will discover that they have few if any options available to themselves.

javert 15y ago
I think that the questions you raise are extremely pertinent, so I agree with you there. We have discovered that the free market will act in such a way that safe workplaces are extremely rare I just don't buy that. I think "extremely rare," there, is a very gross exaggeration. And I think the frequency of dangerous workplaces greatly decreases, as national prosperity increases (which, modulo other kinds of interference, happens over time). I mean, come on - even Foxconn is relatively safe. I'm not hearing accounts of people getting killed, I'm hearing (at worst) accounts of people being fired after acquiring certain kinds of repetitive stress injuries. On the other hand, I do have a moral problem with someone forcefully interposing between two trading parties (in this case, employer and employee). In fact, that kind of case is the only kind in which people are forcibly prevented from exercising their free will.