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I have seen his performance and it is excellent. Possibly the best geek performer I have ever seen. That being said his message is quite biased against outsourc

by pat2man 15y ago

I have seen his performance and it is excellent. Possibly the best geek performer I have ever seen. That being said his message is quite biased against outsourced manual labor. While he addresses he problems that are caused to Chinese workers it doesn't in any way address the fact that Chinese workers are joining companies like Fox Con every day in order to get themselves away from an even worse life. I encourage everyone who can to go to one of his performances but keep in mind that this is one part of China that is actually raising the quality of life for its citizens. It is a horrible situation from our perspective but it's not as easy as blaming one company for all these problems. If Apple pulled out of China it would nOt fix anything. If we want to help the developing class we need to look at the classic issues: education, employment and a government that recognizes the freedom and rights of it's ciizens.

ktrgardiner 15y ago
We talked about exactly this in my Ethics in Technology class and came to the same conclusion you've stated. Yes, this is terrible from our perspective because we outlawed those kind of working conditions years ago. But if there were better options, then there wouldn't be so many people working for Fox Con. And if it's bad to us but manageable to them, then there is worse out there that they are trying to get away from. Thinking and talking about the situation in terms of our lives sensationalizes more than it informs.
- coob 15y ago
  I wonder what people slamming Foxconn think of the fact that all US military helmets are made by prison slave labour in the US.
  - rwmj 15y ago
    It's not a competition. You can think that both things are bad.
- jtbigwoo 15y ago
  And if it's bad to us but manageable to them, then there is worse out there that they are trying to get away from. If every person's situation is relative, then how do we oppose slavery or abuse? It's better than starving to death, right? The real problem here is that there's no recourse in our current economy. China makes well over half the electronics we buy so it's not like a boycott of Apple would necessarily help. I see two approaches that could help. We can appeal to the humanity of CEOs, boards, and investors and try to press them to enact change. Or we can use their vanity by embarrassing them with productions like "The Agony and Ecstasy of Steve Jobs."
  - ktrgardiner 15y ago
    In response to: If every person's situation is relative, then how do we oppose slavery or abuse? It's better than starving to death, right? While I get what you are saying and am by no means arguing in favor of Fox Con, I believe you are turning my shades of gray argument back to black and white. There isn't a strict dividing line between the acceptable and unacceptable; it's a gradient. There is worse than Fox Con and there is worse than what is worse than Fox Con (and so on, ad nauseam). My point is that it is foolish to use Fox Con as the poster child of this issue when there are far worse situations. It does a great disservice to the argument. Most people will stop at Fox Con in their exploration of the situation and say to themselves "That's horrible. We should do something about that," instead of "It's horrible that Fox Con is a better option for most people and that there is worse out there. We should dig deeper and fix the problem from the ground up until Fox Con is the worst of the worst and then we can fix that."
- sofuture 15y ago
  What an abhorrent view. It's a psychopathic justification to shrug off the horrible lives of other people directly impacted by my lifestyle because 'hey, they already had a worse life'. I'm happy to admit I'm as much a part of the problem as anyone else. I'd like to not forget or justify that away at the very least.
  - ktrgardiner 15y ago
    That is not what I am saying at all and I am sorry if that is how I am being interpreted. My comment was not made in malice or ignorance. Understanding that this is not the worst option is the first step to understanding the situation as a whole. Please read my response to jtbigwoo for further clarification.
chugger 15y ago
Let's call this article what it is. This article is just shameless self promotion by an obese man with nothing to do. its disgusting that he had to single out Apple and Steve Jobs to get media attention, when Motorola/Samsung/Sony/HP/Dell/Cisco/etc. does the same thing.
PakG1 15y ago
I'm reading through a book right now titled Factory Girls, by Leslie T. Chang. She was the former Beijing correspondent for the Wall Street Journal. The book is a fascinating piece of work. It delves into the factories of Dongguan, which is a major factory town, perhaps the most active factory town in China (among other things, cough, cough). I have to say that this book is singlehandedly making me understand everything I didn't understand about China, since coming to live and work here a year ago. I currently live in Shenzhen, about an hour south of Dongguan. (edit: coincidentally, where much of Foxconn's operations are based) This book explains everything. The mindset of people when they look for factory jobs. What they do to get ahead. How stereotypes and stigmas come into play in deciding the roles in society. How their background influences their future decisions. Etcetera, etcetera. All the people I see every day seriously make a lot more sense after reading this book, and I'm not even half done yet. Highly recommended.

by pat2man 15y ago

ktrgardiner 15y ago

We talked about exactly this in my Ethics in Technology class and came to the same conclusion you've stated. Yes, this is terrible from our perspective because we outlawed those kind of working conditions years ago. But if there were better options, then there wouldn't be so many people working for Fox Con. And if it's bad to us but manageable to them, then there is worse out there that they are trying to get away from. Thinking and talking about the situation in terms of our lives sensationalizes more than it informs.

coob 15y ago
I wonder what people slamming Foxconn think of the fact that all US military helmets are made by prison slave labour in the US.
- rwmj 15y ago
  It's not a competition. You can think that both things are bad.
jtbigwoo 15y ago
And if it's bad to us but manageable to them, then there is worse out there that they are trying to get away from. If every person's situation is relative, then how do we oppose slavery or abuse? It's better than starving to death, right? The real problem here is that there's no recourse in our current economy. China makes well over half the electronics we buy so it's not like a boycott of Apple would necessarily help. I see two approaches that could help. We can appeal to the humanity of CEOs, boards, and investors and try to press them to enact change. Or we can use their vanity by embarrassing them with productions like "The Agony and Ecstasy of Steve Jobs."
- ktrgardiner 15y ago
  In response to: If every person's situation is relative, then how do we oppose slavery or abuse? It's better than starving to death, right? While I get what you are saying and am by no means arguing in favor of Fox Con, I believe you are turning my shades of gray argument back to black and white. There isn't a strict dividing line between the acceptable and unacceptable; it's a gradient. There is worse than Fox Con and there is worse than what is worse than Fox Con (and so on, ad nauseam). My point is that it is foolish to use Fox Con as the poster child of this issue when there are far worse situations. It does a great disservice to the argument. Most people will stop at Fox Con in their exploration of the situation and say to themselves "That's horrible. We should do something about that," instead of "It's horrible that Fox Con is a better option for most people and that there is worse out there. We should dig deeper and fix the problem from the ground up until Fox Con is the worst of the worst and then we can fix that."
sofuture 15y ago
What an abhorrent view. It's a psychopathic justification to shrug off the horrible lives of other people directly impacted by my lifestyle because 'hey, they already had a worse life'. I'm happy to admit I'm as much a part of the problem as anyone else. I'd like to not forget or justify that away at the very least.
- ktrgardiner 15y ago
  That is not what I am saying at all and I am sorry if that is how I am being interpreted. My comment was not made in malice or ignorance. Understanding that this is not the worst option is the first step to understanding the situation as a whole. Please read my response to jtbigwoo for further clarification.

chugger 15y ago

Let's call this article what it is. This article is just shameless self promotion by an obese man with nothing to do. its disgusting that he had to single out Apple and Steve Jobs to get media attention, when Motorola/Samsung/Sony/HP/Dell/Cisco/etc. does the same thing.

PakG1 15y ago

I'm reading through a book right now titled Factory Girls, by Leslie T. Chang. She was the former Beijing correspondent for the Wall Street Journal. The book is a fascinating piece of work. It delves into the factories of Dongguan, which is a major factory town, perhaps the most active factory town in China (among other things, cough, cough). I have to say that this book is singlehandedly making me understand everything I didn't understand about China, since coming to live and work here a year ago. I currently live in Shenzhen, about an hour south of Dongguan. (edit: coincidentally, where much of Foxconn's operations are based) This book explains everything. The mindset of people when they look for factory jobs. What they do to get ahead. How stereotypes and stigmas come into play in deciding the roles in society. How their background influences their future decisions. Etcetera, etcetera. All the people I see every day seriously make a lot more sense after reading this book, and I'm not even half done yet. Highly recommended.