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Whenever the topics of benefits fraud or means testing come up, there’s always a lot of commentary from people who say it’s more important to deliver aid freely

Whenever the topics of benefits fraud or means testing come up, there’s always a lot of commentary from people who say it’s more important to deliver aid freely and quickly than to ensure that it’s going to the right people. Yet this is a perfect example of why that doesn’t work in practice. Fraudsters are drawn to systems without sufficient controls and they will exploit them mercilessly as long as they think they can get away with it. Worse, aid is infinite and resources are limited. These fake students are blocking actual students from registering for classes and draining away the time of educators and administrators who should be busy running the school, not trying to separate out real and fake students. Means testing is a dumb idea if we’re administering, for example, a $100 drug test before giving someone $100 in food stamps. However, when we’re handing out $5,000 or more then investing $100-$200 into means testing or manual verification should have been an obvious requirement. EDIT: People seem to be misinterpreting this article. The aid in question came from the COVID-19 related HEERF funds and CARES act and was distributed directly to applicants. It did not count towards nor subtract from normal financial aid (FAFSA, etc.) meant to pay for the education. It was supposed to be money meant to help students survive outside of education in a faltering COVID economy. Financial aid for actual education would have gone straight to the school and therefore there's no reason for fraudsters to register to consume it. This is money distributed to students (or fraudsters) via direct deposit. It's different than the aid you're familiar with from past college application experience.

formerkrogemp 4y ago
We need more auditors, more audit money, and more audit work done. As an auditor, I'm not biased however.
wildrhythms 4y ago
It's not that the aid is 'going to the wrong people', it's the fact that financial aid needs to exist in the first place. Setting that aside, I don't really understand how this fraud happens- when I applied for FAFSA, the student loan account was created for me, the assistance applied through some automated system, which was hooked up directly to the college. I never saw the cash at all. The article doesn't explain how the fraud works either.
- PragmaticPulp 4y ago
  > It's not that the aid is 'going to the wrong people', In this case, it literally is going to the wrong people. These funds were designed to give students an extra financial boost during a faltering COVID economy (that didn't really happen) and the funds weren't infinite. If fraudsters are showing up and claiming the money before actual students in need can get it, I don't understand how you think it's not a case of the aid going to the wrong people. Again, this isn't tuition aid and it's not related to the cost of college. It was a stimulus/aid package targeted at people who were also students, but it was separate from tuition assistance or tuition financial aid. > I don't really understand how this fraud happens- when I applied for FAFSA Lawmakers rushed through a lot of new COVID-19 related aid bills and aid packages. Many of them were poorly thought out and implemented as quickly as possible, forgoing controls and verification to get them done ASAP. The article specifically mentions COVID-19 related aid, which has been rife with fraud. It’s frustrating that some of these supposedly time-limited emergency aid packages continue to be handed out despite the booming economy and rampant inflation.
  - Consultant32452 4y ago
    Some of the programs are rife with fraud by accident, some (many?) are rife with fraud by design. In my state the contracting system to do things like build roads is rated the most corrupt in the country. Does anyone imagine that's an accident? The PPP gave out "forgivable" loans to small businesses. It was sold as helping businesses that closed down. I know multiple small businesses that never shut down, had their best year ever during the pandemic, and also took home a few hundred thousand dollars extra from the PPP. The general public would consider this fraud, even though technically it's all by the books, broken by design.
    - newsclues 4y ago
      Agreed Canada has similar Covid benefits that have been thoroughly scammed. I can’t believe it was a mistake, especially when you have government bureaucrats who are doing the scam themselves for millions… https://globalnews.ca/news/7600626/ontario-civil-servant-betrayed-family-with-alleged-11-million-covid-fraud-docs/amp/ https://globalnews.ca/news/7600626/ontario-civil-servant-bet...
jeffbee 4y ago
Seems like you got it backwards. In this case the fraud is enabled by the means test. If the education was simply free or affordable to anyone and funded from tax revenues, this fraud would not be possible. The highest level of fraud possible in that system would be that someone gets an education they did not truly need, which is hardly bad at all.
- junofan 4y ago
  You’re saying when the government pays, there can’t be fraud? I’m not sure that’s correct, historically speaking.
  - jeffbee 4y ago
    How would you scam a free community college?
    - supportlocal4h 4y ago
      It doesn't take much imagination. "Free" doesn't mean there isn't a lot of money swirling around.
      - jeffbee 4y ago
        Spell it out for me. Exactly how would you scam a free community college?
        digisign 4y ago
        Usually done by giving an inflated contract for services of some sort, to an associate. Associate often returns a kickback to the giver. As a campus needs a large maintanance budget, this can be a big source of fraud. However, I agree that low-cost state run colleges are a better strategy than free loans.
frankfrankfrank 4y ago
We should simply make those who support things be personally financially liable for the costs and waste. It’s easy to be flippant about waste when it’s other people’s money you’re wasting.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  Willingness to play fast and loose with other people's money in all contexts is a big problem for western society right now. You see it in both public and private sector.
  - supportlocal4h 4y ago
    "Western" meaning west of where the sun rises?
- msla 4y ago
  That sounds like a free rider problem: No, I don't "support" the bike paths, so I don't pay for their upkeep, but I live in a better city for their existence, even if I don't even own a bike. Similarly, I don't "support" the hospitals, right up until I get cancer and spend over a month in-patient receiving some very expensive therapies.
  - frankfrankfrank 4y ago
    It’s pretty rich for someone to talk of a freeloading problem while advocating for bike lanes that are utilized by only very few, while paid for by everyone else, whether they will ever set foot on the bike path or not. And I say that as a cyclist, but one that can see past the self-serving rationalization and manipulative nature of the freeloader argument. And that doesn’t even address the deeply authoritarian and evil core of the argument of “well, I determine what’s best for you so I will force it on you against your will for your own good, because what I want/enjoy conveniently coincides with what is best for you”. It’s tyranny and a purely evil mindset.
arebop 4y ago
What's the incentive for the fraudster in this? The article doesn't really say, but it does link to one example YouTuber who demonstrates this fraud; he says this is a great way to get a free email account. You seem to suggest this is more about $5000+ than an email account; is the financial aid sent to students rather than the bursar's office?
- xeromal 4y ago
  The commentor edited with more details: > The aid in question came from the COVID-19 related HEERF funds and CARES act and was distributed directly to applicants.
donthellbanme 4y ago
Don't worry Means testing is in full swing today for all government programs. We are back to making qualifying for aid, welfare, etc. difficult so people who need it give up. They got lax during Covid, but not today. The historical point of Means Testing is to dissuade the people whom need it most from applying. Every Social Worker can go on for hours how the powers at be make qualifying for any help arduous. It's never discussed publically, because outright fraud is easier to report on, and the average Joe has never dealt with the welfare system, except maybe in college. I had to lie about living independent in order to qualify for anything other than a Pell grant, and a small federal loan. SOL is up, and I paid my later student loans off completely.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Sniffnoy 4y ago
Benefits fraud and means testing are two separate concerns. Whether verification is performed is independent of whether the aid is restricted based on one's means. Verification needs to be performed, you're certainly correct about that, that much is clear; but that's a separate issue from means testing.
- newbamboo 4y ago
  Not really no.
  - Sniffnoy 4y ago
    Are you going to expand on that or just assert it?
maxerickson 4y ago
The amount disbursed fraudulently and the percentage that represents of the total would be a lot more interesting than the number of fake accounts someone observed. I clicked through to the LA Times article and it mentions at least hundreds of thousands of dollars.

formerkrogemp 4y ago

We need more auditors, more audit money, and more audit work done. As an auditor, I'm not biased however.

wildrhythms 4y ago

It's not that the aid is 'going to the wrong people', it's the fact that financial aid needs to exist in the first place. Setting that aside, I don't really understand how this fraud happens- when I applied for FAFSA, the student loan account was created for me, the assistance applied through some automated system, which was hooked up directly to the college. I never saw the cash at all. The article doesn't explain how the fraud works either.

PragmaticPulp 4y ago
> It's not that the aid is 'going to the wrong people', In this case, it literally is going to the wrong people. These funds were designed to give students an extra financial boost during a faltering COVID economy (that didn't really happen) and the funds weren't infinite. If fraudsters are showing up and claiming the money before actual students in need can get it, I don't understand how you think it's not a case of the aid going to the wrong people. Again, this isn't tuition aid and it's not related to the cost of college. It was a stimulus/aid package targeted at people who were also students, but it was separate from tuition assistance or tuition financial aid. > I don't really understand how this fraud happens- when I applied for FAFSA Lawmakers rushed through a lot of new COVID-19 related aid bills and aid packages. Many of them were poorly thought out and implemented as quickly as possible, forgoing controls and verification to get them done ASAP. The article specifically mentions COVID-19 related aid, which has been rife with fraud. It’s frustrating that some of these supposedly time-limited emergency aid packages continue to be handed out despite the booming economy and rampant inflation.
- Consultant32452 4y ago
  Some of the programs are rife with fraud by accident, some (many?) are rife with fraud by design. In my state the contracting system to do things like build roads is rated the most corrupt in the country. Does anyone imagine that's an accident? The PPP gave out "forgivable" loans to small businesses. It was sold as helping businesses that closed down. I know multiple small businesses that never shut down, had their best year ever during the pandemic, and also took home a few hundred thousand dollars extra from the PPP. The general public would consider this fraud, even though technically it's all by the books, broken by design.
  - newsclues 4y ago
    Agreed Canada has similar Covid benefits that have been thoroughly scammed. I can’t believe it was a mistake, especially when you have government bureaucrats who are doing the scam themselves for millions… https://globalnews.ca/news/7600626/ontario-civil-servant-betrayed-family-with-alleged-11-million-covid-fraud-docs/amp/ https://globalnews.ca/news/7600626/ontario-civil-servant-bet...

jeffbee 4y ago

Seems like you got it backwards. In this case the fraud is enabled by the means test. If the education was simply free or affordable to anyone and funded from tax revenues, this fraud would not be possible. The highest level of fraud possible in that system would be that someone gets an education they did not truly need, which is hardly bad at all.

junofan 4y ago
You’re saying when the government pays, there can’t be fraud? I’m not sure that’s correct, historically speaking.
- jeffbee 4y ago
  How would you scam a free community college?
  - supportlocal4h 4y ago
    It doesn't take much imagination. "Free" doesn't mean there isn't a lot of money swirling around.
    - jeffbee 4y ago
      Spell it out for me. Exactly how would you scam a free community college?
      - digisign 4y ago
        Usually done by giving an inflated contract for services of some sort, to an associate. Associate often returns a kickback to the giver. As a campus needs a large maintanance budget, this can be a big source of fraud. However, I agree that low-cost state run colleges are a better strategy than free loans.

frankfrankfrank 4y ago

We should simply make those who support things be personally financially liable for the costs and waste. It’s easy to be flippant about waste when it’s other people’s money you’re wasting.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago
Willingness to play fast and loose with other people's money in all contexts is a big problem for western society right now. You see it in both public and private sector.
- supportlocal4h 4y ago
  "Western" meaning west of where the sun rises?
msla 4y ago
That sounds like a free rider problem: No, I don't "support" the bike paths, so I don't pay for their upkeep, but I live in a better city for their existence, even if I don't even own a bike. Similarly, I don't "support" the hospitals, right up until I get cancer and spend over a month in-patient receiving some very expensive therapies.
- frankfrankfrank 4y ago
  It’s pretty rich for someone to talk of a freeloading problem while advocating for bike lanes that are utilized by only very few, while paid for by everyone else, whether they will ever set foot on the bike path or not. And I say that as a cyclist, but one that can see past the self-serving rationalization and manipulative nature of the freeloader argument. And that doesn’t even address the deeply authoritarian and evil core of the argument of “well, I determine what’s best for you so I will force it on you against your will for your own good, because what I want/enjoy conveniently coincides with what is best for you”. It’s tyranny and a purely evil mindset.

arebop 4y ago

What's the incentive for the fraudster in this? The article doesn't really say, but it does link to one example YouTuber who demonstrates this fraud; he says this is a great way to get a free email account. You seem to suggest this is more about $5000+ than an email account; is the financial aid sent to students rather than the bursar's office?

xeromal 4y ago
The commentor edited with more details: > The aid in question came from the COVID-19 related HEERF funds and CARES act and was distributed directly to applicants.

donthellbanme 4y ago

Don't worry Means testing is in full swing today for all government programs. We are back to making qualifying for aid, welfare, etc. difficult so people who need it give up. They got lax during Covid, but not today. The historical point of Means Testing is to dissuade the people whom need it most from applying. Every Social Worker can go on for hours how the powers at be make qualifying for any help arduous. It's never discussed publically, because outright fraud is easier to report on, and the average Joe has never dealt with the welfare system, except maybe in college. I had to lie about living independent in order to qualify for anything other than a Pell grant, and a small federal loan. SOL is up, and I paid my later student loans off completely.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Sniffnoy 4y ago

Benefits fraud and means testing are two separate concerns. Whether verification is performed is independent of whether the aid is restricted based on one's means. Verification needs to be performed, you're certainly correct about that, that much is clear; but that's a separate issue from means testing.

newbamboo 4y ago
Not really no.
- Sniffnoy 4y ago
  Are you going to expand on that or just assert it?

maxerickson 4y ago

The amount disbursed fraudulently and the percentage that represents of the total would be a lot more interesting than the number of fake accounts someone observed. I clicked through to the LA Times article and it mentions at least hundreds of thousands of dollars.