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What is baffling? OP explains that they didn't have certain things on their CV. If I was hiring for a JS app and the applicant was all Java or .Net, it is no di

What is baffling? OP explains that they didn't have certain things on their CV. If I was hiring for a JS app and the applicant was all Java or .Net, it is no disrespect to them to filter them out at the CV stage. I can only speak for myself but as a Dev of 20 years, mainly in .Net (but with Java, Obj-C, PHP and JS experience) I wouldn't dream of applying for a JS job because despite the trope, it is not easy for a Senior to switch languages and just pick it up.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago
I'm going to rail against this. The far majority of tools are not so obscenely complex you can't learn the majority of it. The far majority of jobs are not so obscenely difficult you need the bleeding edge implementations available in those tools. Looking online, the amount of information available to do what you want is insane. There's almost always someone who has already done things, especially for technologies older than a few years. This is even more problematic considering this selection is done on framework and library level as well, and many other tools. At the same time, making a tech stack is much like creating an ice cream cone with thousands of flavors, decorations and even cones available. Language agnosticism and general intelligence should be applauded far more than the industry currently does. Many toolmakers are doing their best to make using their tools as seamless as possible, and they are doing a good job at it.
- dotBen 4y ago
  Sure, and if I may I'll politely rail back as a former hiring manager... :D I have no doubt that the senior software engineer with plenty of .net/python/whatever experience could pick up the needed JS if they were given the position. But there's going to be extended ramp up time as they familiarize themselves, they won't know the libraries let alone their intricacies and idiosyncrasies etc, they won't have a lot of language specific fresh approaches and experience to inject into the team (which I'm looking for in a senior+ role). I would rather just hire someone who already has the deep bench of JS experience at the same level. Language agnosticism and general intelligence should be applauded far more than the industry currently does. The reason for this is because I'm not hiring for the craft of software engineering, which your perspective aligns with, I'm hiring to achieve business objectives quickly, efficiently and to a high standard. Not realizing that most hiring businesses are optimizing for the latter and not the former is what trips a lot of career software engineers up. You see yourself as a craftsperson, the employer sees you as a resource to achieve their business objectives.
  - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
    >I'm hiring to achieve business objectives quickly, efficiently and to a high standard Don't misunderstand, I do understand the point of view from hiring managers. But in the current job market, where people change jobs rapidly to actually obtain said knowledge while at the same time technology continues to change rapidly (often repeating the cycle rather than actually innovating), surely it should be evident this isn't going to be efficient if not sustainable in the long run. If anything, you're giving people the exact arguments why we shouldn't trust companies to act for the good of the industry long term.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      The .Net and Java ecosystems haven’t changed that much in the past decade. On the front end, it seems to have calmed down.
      - DeathArrow 4y ago
        .NET changed quite a lot.
        scarface74 4y ago
        I’ve been actively using .Net since 2008. Sure it changes slowly with the biggest change with .Net Core and ASP.Net Core and EF Core. But it didn’t take that long to learn the differences.
        DeathArrow 4y ago
        Then there's Blazor, there's MAUI, there are changes in C# itself and lots of new libraries.
        scarface74 4y ago
        Changing - do I have to learn something new to do the same thing today as I did yesterday - is different than adding new capabilities.
sdevonoes 4y ago
> it is not easy for a Senior to switch languages and just pick it up. This surprises me. I have 15 years of experience in the field, and it was many years ago when I got my degree in computer science. Back in the day, they thought me algorithms and what not using pseudocode (!)... nowadays I can easily pick up any tool (programming language, framework) in, I don't know, a month? Of course I won't be the best developer out there with 1 month only, but pretty much I can be productive. Sure, if one is switching from, let's say Python to Haskell, then the learning curve is higher than if you switch from Python to Ruby or JavaScript. Still, it still amazes me seeing some developers call themselves "PHP developer" or "Kubernetes architect".
- scarface74 4y ago
  Languages are easy, it’s the ecosystem, framework and best practices that take time. Any developer can pick up Java or Swift in a month. That doesn’t mean you could turn them lose and tell them to write a mobile app by themselves or lead a project doing so in a month. A “JavaScript developer” is useless as a front end developer if they don’t know the clusterf^# of the modern front end ecosystem I was a “C# developer” until 2020. That implies I knew the ecosystem, frameworks, corner cases, best practices, what could go wrong at scale if you used the different frameworks incorrectly etc. What I didn’t have to do - ever in the last 12 years of my career - is reverse a binary tree on the whiteboard while juggling bowling balls while riding a unicycle on a tightrope. I went into smaller companies and got hired based on my expertise. Even now, I didn’t have to go through the DS&A grind to get into BigTech where I code everyday because I was able to sell myself as an “enterprise developer who knew how to lead projects and talk to customers and I specialize in architecting solutions on their cloud platform”. Does it limit my optionality? Definitely. I’ll be working on that over the next couple of years.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago

I'm going to rail against this. The far majority of tools are not so obscenely complex you can't learn the majority of it. The far majority of jobs are not so obscenely difficult you need the bleeding edge implementations available in those tools. Looking online, the amount of information available to do what you want is insane. There's almost always someone who has already done things, especially for technologies older than a few years. This is even more problematic considering this selection is done on framework and library level as well, and many other tools. At the same time, making a tech stack is much like creating an ice cream cone with thousands of flavors, decorations and even cones available. Language agnosticism and general intelligence should be applauded far more than the industry currently does. Many toolmakers are doing their best to make using their tools as seamless as possible, and they are doing a good job at it.

dotBen 4y ago
Sure, and if I may I'll politely rail back as a former hiring manager... :D I have no doubt that the senior software engineer with plenty of .net/python/whatever experience could pick up the needed JS if they were given the position. But there's going to be extended ramp up time as they familiarize themselves, they won't know the libraries let alone their intricacies and idiosyncrasies etc, they won't have a lot of language specific fresh approaches and experience to inject into the team (which I'm looking for in a senior+ role). I would rather just hire someone who already has the deep bench of JS experience at the same level. Language agnosticism and general intelligence should be applauded far more than the industry currently does. The reason for this is because I'm not hiring for the craft of software engineering, which your perspective aligns with, I'm hiring to achieve business objectives quickly, efficiently and to a high standard. Not realizing that most hiring businesses are optimizing for the latter and not the former is what trips a lot of career software engineers up. You see yourself as a craftsperson, the employer sees you as a resource to achieve their business objectives.
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  >I'm hiring to achieve business objectives quickly, efficiently and to a high standard Don't misunderstand, I do understand the point of view from hiring managers. But in the current job market, where people change jobs rapidly to actually obtain said knowledge while at the same time technology continues to change rapidly (often repeating the cycle rather than actually innovating), surely it should be evident this isn't going to be efficient if not sustainable in the long run. If anything, you're giving people the exact arguments why we shouldn't trust companies to act for the good of the industry long term.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    The .Net and Java ecosystems haven’t changed that much in the past decade. On the front end, it seems to have calmed down.
    - DeathArrow 4y ago
      .NET changed quite a lot.
      - scarface74 4y ago
        I’ve been actively using .Net since 2008. Sure it changes slowly with the biggest change with .Net Core and ASP.Net Core and EF Core. But it didn’t take that long to learn the differences.
        DeathArrow 4y ago
        Then there's Blazor, there's MAUI, there are changes in C# itself and lots of new libraries.
        scarface74 4y ago
        Changing - do I have to learn something new to do the same thing today as I did yesterday - is different than adding new capabilities.

sdevonoes 4y ago

> it is not easy for a Senior to switch languages and just pick it up. This surprises me. I have 15 years of experience in the field, and it was many years ago when I got my degree in computer science. Back in the day, they thought me algorithms and what not using pseudocode (!)... nowadays I can easily pick up any tool (programming language, framework) in, I don't know, a month? Of course I won't be the best developer out there with 1 month only, but pretty much I can be productive. Sure, if one is switching from, let's say Python to Haskell, then the learning curve is higher than if you switch from Python to Ruby or JavaScript. Still, it still amazes me seeing some developers call themselves "PHP developer" or "Kubernetes architect".

scarface74 4y ago
Languages are easy, it’s the ecosystem, framework and best practices that take time. Any developer can pick up Java or Swift in a month. That doesn’t mean you could turn them lose and tell them to write a mobile app by themselves or lead a project doing so in a month. A “JavaScript developer” is useless as a front end developer if they don’t know the clusterf^# of the modern front end ecosystem I was a “C# developer” until 2020. That implies I knew the ecosystem, frameworks, corner cases, best practices, what could go wrong at scale if you used the different frameworks incorrectly etc. What I didn’t have to do - ever in the last 12 years of my career - is reverse a binary tree on the whiteboard while juggling bowling balls while riding a unicycle on a tightrope. I went into smaller companies and got hired based on my expertise. Even now, I didn’t have to go through the DS&A grind to get into BigTech where I code everyday because I was able to sell myself as an “enterprise developer who knew how to lead projects and talk to customers and I specialize in architecting solutions on their cloud platform”. Does it limit my optionality? Definitely. I’ll be working on that over the next couple of years.