4 ms·

> "Senior" is a title with a different meaning everywhere And so is meaningless. Can we just get rid of this "I am a senior" nonsense? Also "I am a junior", c

> "Senior" is a title with a different meaning everywhere And so is meaningless. Can we just get rid of this "I am a senior" nonsense? Also "I am a junior", come to that.

ThalesX 5y ago
Whenever I interview I present myself as a developer with more than a decade of experience that wants $X / year and willing to go a bit lower for the right company. Whatever other categorizations they might have for me, is on the company. Ultimately I don’t really care.
- zabzonk 5y ago
  Well, ditto. The most meaningless job title I ever wound up with was "Senior Systems Architect" - really only something they could put on my business cards so they could sell me for consultancy gigs. Bah! It's not what they call you, it's what they pay you - call by reference versus call by value, I guess.
  - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
    >The most meaningless job title I ever wound up with was "Senior Systems Architect" hah, when I was employed by the Danish under ministry in charge of standardization (called IT og Telestyrelsen at that time) management people came through one day and asked what titles we wanted, and for various amusing reasons another guy and I said we want to be called "XML Architects". They gave us business cards too!
  - mmmpop 5y ago
    > It's not what they call you, it's what they pay you This is correct because if I'm writing checks, the one making the most is generally my "senior" person. I suppose this doesn't scale well though, especially when you start talking about niche skillsets where being objectively "good" gets conflated with "useful at the moment."
- DeathArrow 5y ago
  >Whenever I interview I present myself as a developer with more than a decade of experience that wants $X / year and willing to go a bit lower for the right company I present myself as someone with plenty of experience in both writing code and software architecture. Someone they direly need and will help their business achieve its goals for at least X amount of money. Which would be a great deal for them even if it doesn't sound cheap in the beginning. Many told me it's too much. But a few have said yes. You should think about the largest amount you think you can obtain. And add 15 - 20 % on top. You will be surprised in finding that someone will say yes.
alostpuppy 5y ago
Yes please.
simplehuman 5y ago
What should one replace it with?
- zabzonk 5y ago
  You don't need a replacement - you don't need it in the first place.
lbriner 5y ago
That was the point that jumped out to me as well. If we can all start making progression ladders a normal part of a dev team then we recruit for a rung on the ladder rather than an arbitrary title. Then us Devs will be less precious about "That person said I wasn't a Senior", instead we can try and convince our prospective employer that we can e.g. "Consistently produce high quality code", "Is a thought-leader in new frameworks etc." It also allows conversations about salary to be more open since we pay a range for a specific level and not a massive range of 20-100K depending on how good somebody interviews or how much gall they have asking for more than they deserve! see https://www.progression.fyi/ https://www.progression.fyi/
wintermutestwin 5y ago
? I found the label to be highly useful as an adjective descriptor. At the highest level it is a way to distinguish between Intelligence and Wisdom. Wisdom requires experience, but experience doesn't indicate Wisdom. A senior role has to be someone who can mentor junior roles and has fairly well developed soft skills. I can put a senior in front of a customer. When choosing between two candidates for a senior role: Candidate A has: Int 16 Wis 10 Candidate B has: Int 14 Wis 12 I would almost always choose Candidate B.
- zabzonk 5y ago
  And you evaluate Int and Wis scores ... how?
  - wintermutestwin 5y ago
    It was a D&D reference. I figured any geek would grok it. I was just making the point that intelligence alone does not make a good hire for a senior position. Of course the specific methods of evaluation are complex, but I would argue that it is easier to evaluate wisdom by asking experiential questions.
    - zabzonk 5y ago
      > I figured any geek would grok it. I did. I simply don't understand how such scores can be evaluated in real life.
sdevonoes 5y ago
Yes, it's meaningless among developers, but not among recruiters. Since I work first and foremost in exchange for money, I make it pretty clear to recruiters that I am "a very senior software architect with knowledge in X, Y and what not under my belt"... and so, I get more offers and got more money when negotiating an offer. Among my colleagues, or when someone (not a recruiter) asks me what I do for a living, I say: I'm a computer programmer.
throwaway_1928 5y ago
I believe "Senior" in tech interviews only means: * been around longer and more subject to ageism * more system design questions
DeathArrow 5y ago
We can replace senior with guru or master. Or ninja.

> "Senior" is a title with a different meaning everywhere And so is meaningless. Can we just get rid of this "I am a senior" nonsense? Also "I am a junior", come to that.

ThalesX 5y ago

Whenever I interview I present myself as a developer with more than a decade of experience that wants $X / year and willing to go a bit lower for the right company. Whatever other categorizations they might have for me, is on the company. Ultimately I don’t really care.

zabzonk 5y ago
Well, ditto. The most meaningless job title I ever wound up with was "Senior Systems Architect" - really only something they could put on my business cards so they could sell me for consultancy gigs. Bah! It's not what they call you, it's what they pay you - call by reference versus call by value, I guess.
- bryanrasmussen 5y ago
  >The most meaningless job title I ever wound up with was "Senior Systems Architect" hah, when I was employed by the Danish under ministry in charge of standardization (called IT og Telestyrelsen at that time) management people came through one day and asked what titles we wanted, and for various amusing reasons another guy and I said we want to be called "XML Architects". They gave us business cards too!
- mmmpop 5y ago
  > It's not what they call you, it's what they pay you This is correct because if I'm writing checks, the one making the most is generally my "senior" person. I suppose this doesn't scale well though, especially when you start talking about niche skillsets where being objectively "good" gets conflated with "useful at the moment."
DeathArrow 5y ago
>Whenever I interview I present myself as a developer with more than a decade of experience that wants $X / year and willing to go a bit lower for the right company I present myself as someone with plenty of experience in both writing code and software architecture. Someone they direly need and will help their business achieve its goals for at least X amount of money. Which would be a great deal for them even if it doesn't sound cheap in the beginning. Many told me it's too much. But a few have said yes. You should think about the largest amount you think you can obtain. And add 15 - 20 % on top. You will be surprised in finding that someone will say yes.

alostpuppy 5y ago

Yes please.

simplehuman 5y ago

What should one replace it with?

zabzonk 5y ago
You don't need a replacement - you don't need it in the first place.

lbriner 5y ago

That was the point that jumped out to me as well. If we can all start making progression ladders a normal part of a dev team then we recruit for a rung on the ladder rather than an arbitrary title. Then us Devs will be less precious about "That person said I wasn't a Senior", instead we can try and convince our prospective employer that we can e.g. "Consistently produce high quality code", "Is a thought-leader in new frameworks etc." It also allows conversations about salary to be more open since we pay a range for a specific level and not a massive range of 20-100K depending on how good somebody interviews or how much gall they have asking for more than they deserve! see https://www.progression.fyi/ https://www.progression.fyi/

wintermutestwin 5y ago

? I found the label to be highly useful as an adjective descriptor. At the highest level it is a way to distinguish between Intelligence and Wisdom. Wisdom requires experience, but experience doesn't indicate Wisdom. A senior role has to be someone who can mentor junior roles and has fairly well developed soft skills. I can put a senior in front of a customer. When choosing between two candidates for a senior role: Candidate A has: Int 16 Wis 10 Candidate B has: Int 14 Wis 12 I would almost always choose Candidate B.

zabzonk 5y ago
And you evaluate Int and Wis scores ... how?
- wintermutestwin 5y ago
  It was a D&D reference. I figured any geek would grok it. I was just making the point that intelligence alone does not make a good hire for a senior position. Of course the specific methods of evaluation are complex, but I would argue that it is easier to evaluate wisdom by asking experiential questions.
  - zabzonk 5y ago
    > I figured any geek would grok it. I did. I simply don't understand how such scores can be evaluated in real life.

sdevonoes 5y ago

Yes, it's meaningless among developers, but not among recruiters. Since I work first and foremost in exchange for money, I make it pretty clear to recruiters that I am "a very senior software architect with knowledge in X, Y and what not under my belt"... and so, I get more offers and got more money when negotiating an offer. Among my colleagues, or when someone (not a recruiter) asks me what I do for a living, I say: I'm a computer programmer.

throwaway_1928 5y ago

I believe "Senior" in tech interviews only means: * been around longer and more subject to ageism * more system design questions

DeathArrow 5y ago

We can replace senior with guru or master. Or ninja.